February 6, 2007

A Biblical Critique of Debbie Maken's Book "Getting Serious about Getting Married" (part 13)

PART XIII: Chapter 12 - "Saying No to the Dating Game" (As If Anything Would Change Thereby)

In Chapter 12 of Getting Serious About Getting Married, Debbie Maken states that modern dating represents "a broken system, and it's time to call it quits" (p. 145). She thus spends the rest of the chapter detailing the alleged evils of dating. Naturally, Mrs. Maken feels it is women who suffer the most in the current dating scene: "Despite the fact that men often resent dating because they have to foot the bill, I believe women pay a much higher price" (Ibid.). Yet is this actually the case? Let us examine this and other claims made in Chapter 12.

Women Always Have It Worse, Dontcha Know

If there is any mantra that would best describe the current thinking in our society about gender relations, it would be, "Women always have it worse." This statement lies at the heart of feminism and all the other gynocentrist manifestations of self-pity and entitlement found in our culture. I am afraid that some of the same thinking surfaces in Chapter 12 of Mrs. Maken's book. On p. 147, she speaks of dating promoting a "lack of equality," as if she were suddenly the champion of downtrodden women everywhere fighting against patriarchy. Mrs. Maken explains her position thusly:
"In its most prevalent form, dating is initiated by men who pursue women for companionship, sex, living together, or marriage. Though many people believe that it's perfectly okay for women to initiate a dating relationship, the simple fact is that most women don't.

"Because that's the way it is, a man has the ultimate balance of power in dating. He looks around at his leisure, decides who he thinks is the most physically and emotionally attractive, and asks her out for a date--all on his timetable. A woman waits for a man to become interested, and when and if he asks her out, her only power is a decisional one--whether or not to accept his invitation."
(p. 147-148)
Who are we kidding, here? Men have the "ultimate balance of power?" How strange that women insist on sharing power with men in every other field of endeavor, but can't seem to want the "power" that men have in initiating relationships. Why is it that we can have female astronauts, politicians, scientists, and lawyers, but we have difficulty getting ladies to ask men out or to pay for dates? Are women who have no problem comporting themselves in an assertive manner and lording their authority over men suddenly worried about their femininity if they ask a man out? Get real.

I think it is obvious that Mrs. Maken is overstating her case here. She opines, "A woman feels pressured into accepting invitations from less than worthy candidates. Her veto power isn't much of a bargaining chip, because the downside of saying no is losing more time until the next offer comes in" (p. 148). Yet, I wonder how many seconds it takes for a woman to say in a polite tone, "I'm sorry but I am not interested. Thanks anyway." Simply put, many women do not have to go through the gut-wrenching anxiety of making the first move. They can signal their interest to a man in ways that provide some safety for their reputations--and their egos.

The same cannot be said for men. Asking the wrong woman out can get a man labeled as a "creep" or a "stalker." Even worse, a man can find himself the target of a frivolous lawsuit or disciplinary action at work. Women have treated men shabbily in this regard. In days gone by, a rejection was nothing more than that--a rejection. Now, a man is forced to navigate an emotional and legal minefield to gain a woman's acceptance, thanks in no small part to feminism and misplaced chivalry. Too many women have been weaned on a diet of misandry, victimhood, hostility, and paranoia. Even their body language betrays a confrontational attitude. Who wants to get up the nerve to ask these kind of women out? Let's face it: Dating is not fun for many men. The whole experience is filled with angst because there is always the fear that a man's advances will be taken the wrong way. From undue public embarrassment to shattered careers, many men are coming to the conclusion that the drama of approaching a woman is not worth it.

With respect to the expenses of dating, Mrs. Maken's position doesn't even make the qualifying round. It is usually men who are expected to pick up the tab for all social outings with a woman. After men open their wallets, women complain that these gents "expect something" in return. Indeed, men should. At the very least, some integrity and courtesy on the part of the woman is not too much to ask, is it? Somehow, it's perfectly okay for women to send mixed signals about their intentions while men are excoriated for doing the same. I myself have been the casualty of a Christian woman who was more than willing to let me take her out for dates, only to tell me afterwards that friendship was the best she could offer. Why the sudden change in demeanor? I daresay this happens to men more often than many care to admit.

Is the Man So Beneath You?

Elsewhere in Chapter 12, Mrs. Maken writes:
"Sally was in her late thirties, owned her own home, and had a respectable job and a decent savings account. She was dating someone who, though older, was a pizza delivery boy. I was shocked. She actually became engaged to this individual, which was even more shocking. At some point she looked up and thought, This isn't fair. The engagement ended, and I have to admit I was relieved." (p. 148)
I gather that Mrs. Maken finds something undesirable about pizza delivery boys. However, what needs to addressed is the larger problem of how men have been displaced in this society. Since the Industrial Revolution, men have viewed their contribution to their marriage and family largely in terms of the paycheck they bring home from their employers. Now, there is a decrease in manufacturing jobs which typically favor men and an increase in service sector jobs which favor women. On top of this, women are infiltrating high-paying white-collar jobs traditionally held by men.

What should men do when schools, universities, and workplaces increasingly favor women over them? Men could repeatedly go back to school to acquire more marketable skills, yet in Chapter 4, Mrs. Maken bemoans people who spend extended periods of time getting an education. So what man could make it in the brave new world that Mrs. Maken proposes? Obviously, one already born into a position of privilege. This basically is the no-win situation that faces any man who buys into Mrs. Maken's paradigm.

Speaking of pizza delivery boys, I should point out that I have known two grown men who have delivered pizzas to get themselves through school or to support a family. These men are not irresponsible "slackers" as some might suppose, but spiritually-minded individuals who have shown themselves ready to do whatever it takes to get the proverbial job done. I have been blessed to have one of them work for me. Mrs. Maken's comment does no justice to these two individuals and similar hard-working men of modest means.

As for the woman mentioned by Mrs. Maken, it is difficult for me to have sympathy for her. If she was truly in love and truly compatible with the man to whom she was engaged, why did she let her ambitions drive her away from him? If she was just desperate and grasping at whatever attention came her way, why did she fail to make her intentions clear, defrauding an innocent man in the process? It's one thing to state that pizza delivery boys are not one's type. It's another matter to allow a relationship to proceed to an engagement before having the honesty to admit to one's mating preferences.

Mrs. Maken goes on to say:
"Women are generally beholden to men for asking them out, and men are indirectly encouraged to seek out women slightly above them. Who's going to stop them? Since prospective suitors know they will not meet a woman's family on the front end, they can take the gamble of aiming high and hope to get lucky. In the past men would not have been so bold because a girl's parents would tell any suitor beneath her to scram." (Ibid.)
I am not sure what I should make of this quote. In what way does Mrs. Maken think the women in question are "above" the men that seek them? Are these women richer, more educated, more attractive, more mature, or more spiritual? I think that compatibility between men and women in terms of faith, values, aspirations, personality, and interests are important, but I find any undue stress on social status to be worrisome. Does Mrs. Maken propose a caste system for men and women as is the case in India? I sincerely hope she is not advocating some form of woman-centered elitism and snobbery in this regard.

Oddly enough, Boundless.org (a marriage mandate website I have previously mentioned) recently published an article about the problem of status-seeking behaviors. It notes that, among other things, a decline of Christianity's influence over western culture is consonant with a rise of what is called "status anxiety" (Roberto Rivera y Carlo, "Optional Anxiety," February 1, 2007, Accessed from www.boundless.org). Given that this is true, I think we can do just fine without having "status anxiety" in terms of who we pick for a mate. We can bloviate all day long about 1 Tim. 5:8 and men being "breadwinners." As I suggested in Part 5 of my critique, 1 Tim. 5:8 was written to both genders. Applying it exclusively to men is a misuse of the scriptures that ignores both the original grammar and context. But even if I were to grant the misuse of this passage for the sake of argument, the Bible still says:
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Tim. 6:6-10, NKJV)
Women should stop having so much anxiety about a man's status, as opposed to considering his character and personal compatibility. Too many of them have forgotten what the Bible really says about rating men as being "above" or "beneath" them (Luke 12:15; James 1:9-11; Rom. 12:16; Phil. 2:1-8).

In fact, it's saddening to see how many women are herd creatures in terms of whom they date. Many of them do not pursue relationships with quality men, sometimes not even with men to whom they are initially attracted. Their choice of men is instead largely driven by the approval of their female friends. Men become fashion accessories as a consequence. Needless to say, women must start thinking for themselves, or if they need approval from other women, they ought to seek out the advice of more godly and mature women (Titus 2:3-5). When I say mature women, I have in mind ladies who are over the age of 55 and reject the Oprah Winfrey/Dr. Phil/Lifetime Channel culture of female entitlement. Perhaps younger women might be consulted, but sadly in the wake of feminism, there seems to be a lot of women who are just as immature in their thirties and forties as they were in high school.

Dating Doesn't Work - No Kidding, Sherlock

I agree with Debbie Maken that dating, as it often exists, is largely a dysfunctional system for fostering intimate relationships between men and women. Mrs. Maken complains that woman lose their time, trust, innocence, and passion after dating for a long time. She says:
"Though a good word of caution, telling women not to put too much of an 'emotional investment' into dating denies our female nature. We're back once more to the fact that God designed us for marriage. It's our nature to want it. And because that's how God made us, that's what we're invariably looking for as we date." (p. 149)
Really? One does not always detect this "female nature" in young women today. In fact, many women seem to be more in love with their independence, consumer goods, outings with fellow friends, etc. I have lived through a decade of "grrl power" and stupid lifestyle magazine columns emblazoned with the question, "Who Needs Men?" (or with similar revealing titles). How many young men looking for the woman of their dreams were sidelined because a girl was too busy chasing excitement or was shacking up with all the wrong guys? Let's level here: After seeing how many women behave, men also lose their time, trust, innocence, and passion.

Debbie Maken goes on to say that dating causes fatigue and that past a certain point, single women cannot "put on rose-colored glasses when looking at the past" (p. 150). I wonder when dating ceases to be fun for women in this respect. Is it when their biological clocks start winding down? It is at the point when they start aging faster than their male counterparts? Is it when they realize that the dating game is no longer rigged in their favor?

What about those women who have never been able to attract a man? Mrs. Maken remarks, "Today we have a de facto spinsterhood, in which random women--many of whom are incredibly beautiful and not overly independent--are still single with no apparent explanation. Singleness is no longer for the ugly, the cruel, and the indifferent" (Ibid.) [emphasis mine]. I am sure that will make some physically unattractive women feel better ... not. How would have Mrs. Maken comforted these women in an earlier generation? Would she have handed them the same lines about the "Gift of Singleness" that she herself found tiresome as a single woman? Would Mrs. Maken have demanded that men go against biology and look past these women's appearances, even as she and others obviously do not look past the kind of jobs men have (e.g., the "pizza delivery boy")? Would she have declared these women to be predestined to sexual frustration and sin, and perhaps predestined to hell?

Really, why does extended singleness suddenly become a tragedy when "incredibly beautiful" women are passed by? Why do we feel there is "no apparent explanation" to their singleness? Quite frankly, I think there are of plenty of "incredibly beautiful" women who are ignorant, vain, unstable, calculating, materialistic, hypercritical, boorish, or disrespectful to men. It is no mystery to me why many of them are still single. Many of them think they are "too good" for the men around them. Men pick up on this attitude and, accordingly, go to greener pastures where the mares are more prone to nuzzle than kick. Other men just go off and make a stable for themselves.

Old Whine into New Wineskins?

On page 151, Mrs. Maken says that dating forces women to pretend to be disinterested in marriage. I respond that dating forces men to pretend to be disinterested in sex. Either way, no one likes to be around a desperate person. So we'll just have to learn to master our desires; stop acting like other people owe us something in this matter; and be secure in our self-image, won't we? In other words, how do women feel now that the shoe is on other foot? How do they feel now that they are being measured with the same measure that has been used against men?

The way women pressure men into marriage is no more honorable than the way men pressure women into sex. Mrs. Maken remarks, "Of course, men often say they don't know what they're looking for in a wife and that dating someone for a year or two gives them a chance to figure it out" (p. 152). Of course, men say this--because it's true. I am tired of the whining that "men won't commit." Marriage is a more costly proposition for men these days than it was in the past. More is expected from them as husbands and fathers. If a marriage breaks up, they stand to lose more than women. So, it's only natural that a man treads cautiously into the institution of marriage. Who can blame him for wanting to know the woman he is dating well enough before making such a grave decision?

Mrs. Maken continues her tirade:
"I have a hard time believing that men today meet 'the one' at twenty-nine, thirty-four, or thirty-eight when men in the past did the exact same thing in their early twenties. In the not-too-distant past shame was involved if a man went out with a woman more than three or four times without the intention of marriage. His reputation was mud, and other women would refuse him once they were made aware of his uncommitted nature. With no sense of shame (or purpose) today, men can hop, skip, and jump from one girlfriend to the next, while women are told to wait on the Lord" (p. 153).
So, shall we shame men into marriage? I caution my readers that shame doesn't work very well when employed by the shameless. In this sense, many women, religious or otherwise, have comported themselves in a quite a shameless manner for some time. How about returning to shaming women who divorce their husbands for frivolous reasons, single moms, women who knowingly chase rakes, and women who go into male-dominated professions? I suppose that in many respects most people would not want to turn back the clock for women. Fair enough. Yet no matter how you feel about the situation, the proverbial genie is out of the bottle. It's downright idiotic to put the old yoke on the male ox while the female ox gets to roam all over the field. There is going to have to be a monumental sea change of thought in our society before we can go back to the "good old days." Let's not think we can put the old whine (yes, I spelled it that way) into new wineskins.

Just Say No ... As If Others Won't Do the Same to You

At the end of Chapter 12, Debbie Maken adjures her readers to "just say no" to the way dating is done. She says that whenever a woman dates a man, the woman should ask about his intentions, motives, and history. Mrs. Maken also says any man who is not serious about getting married should be dumped. Finally, Mrs. Maken advises women to be honest about what they want and set limits (such as breaking off a relationship if it doesn't proceed towards marriage by a certain time).

I suppose this advice is somewhat feasible. Yet I have to ask why dating someone you break up with is necessarily a "waste" of "time"? I think of all the friends I have had during my youth and how many of them have moved on with their lives. Because I am no longer in touch with them, does it mean that the time I enjoyed with them was all for naught? If it wasn't for naught, why should the situation necessarily be different with members of the opposite sex--even with former girlfriends?

When women complain that they "wasted their time" on a man who "won't commit," I think there is usually more than meets the eye. First of all, are these women saying there was no inherent joy or pleasure in the time they spent with their ex-boyfriends? If there was joy, then why automatically call it a "waste of time"? If there wasn't any joy, then were these women just going through the motions to get something out of the man? Like men, women need to be honest about their motivations. Women constantly complain of men who are just being nice in order to "get into their pants." Is being nice to a man in order to get his paycheck and get pregnant by him that much more acceptable? If anyone thinks this kind of opportunism is fine for women, remember what the Bible says: "Let love be without hypocrisy" (Rom. 12:9, NKJV). Perhaps men should also raise questions about intentions, motivations, and personal history.

This is why I insist that a man and woman start with a genuine friendship. The friendship should be reciprocal in terms of trust, respect, and generosity. It should have value in and of itself; it should have no strings attached and no premature expectations of where it will lead. In such a relationship, it's easier for both parties to be honest about their intentions. There is no need to devote exclusive attention to a friend of the opposite sex until there is expressed mutual agreement about the state of the relationship.

Having said that, I will say it's difficult to form such a friendship if one has a paranoid attitude about the opposite sex; makes up peculiar rules for "limiting access" to oneself; prematurely asks others pointed and potentially embarrassing questions about their past romantic life--you get the picture. Debbie Maken starts off Chapter 12 comparing dating to a job interview where the woman takes the role of the employer. If you are a woman who sees dating in this way, don't be surprised if men treat the prospect of dating you like a job interview as well--and find other women that don't make them feel that way.

Conclusion

Chapter 12 is too much like Chapter 4--lopsided in its criticism of men. We are supposed to believe that dating doesn't work and men have an unfair advantage. How strange that after a few generations of dating as we know it, women like Mrs. Maken are only now discovering its shortcomings. Why has there been no similar outcry when men get shortchanged in dating? I suspect that, as usual, the concerns of average men simply do not matter to many "relationship experts."

There is one final issue that I want to raise about Chapter 12 of Mrs. Maken's book. On page 146, Debbie Maken quotes a character from the TV series Sex in the City (just as she does in the previous chapter on page 142). I do not know if Mrs. Maken watches the program or if she knows someone else who does, but why are quotations from a ribald program aired on HBO supposed to carry weight with a Christian readership? I know many men who find Sex in the City to be disgusting in its celebration of contemporary vice, especially as displayed by secular women. The fact that Mrs. Maken quotes from this program causes me some concern. The fact that her publisher, literary agent, reviewers, etc. did not dissuade her from doing so causes me some concern. Forgive me if I sound alarmist, but I wonder what the state of biblical womanhood is in this culture when we see religious women looking to worldly female characters on a sitcom for literary inspiration. Surely, people can do better than this.

313 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excellent post!

This is most balanced and reasonable treatment of Maken's book I have seen anywhere. Very well done.

My overall concern about Maken's book is that it teaches single Christian women some behaviors that will push men away, or at least make them uncomfortable.

Lots of single women admit they'd like to stop working, find a husband and have a child. Sure, and I wish I had gotten a 1950s union job that paid enough for me to marry at 19 and have two kids by the time I was 25.

Life is different now. One either accepts reality and men as they are now, or there may be a lot of lonely years ahead.

Lots of women have accepted solitude. Many more don't mind spending year after year blaming and shaming men; seeming to enjoy battling windmills of "GoS" and the "enemy" keeping them barren.

There are women who are content being single, and there are women content to be complaining about being single. The rest accept men for what they are and generally find love and happiness.

2/7/07, 8:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I have a hard time believing that men today meet 'the one' at twenty-nine, thirty-four, or thirty-eight when men in the past did the exact same thing in their early twenties. In the not-too-distant past shame was involved if a man went out with a woman more than three or four times without the intention of marriage. His reputation was mud, and other women would refuse him once they were made aware of his uncommitted nature. With no sense of shame (or purpose) today, men can hop, skip, and jump from one girlfriend to the next, while women are told to wait on the Lord" (p. 153).

This quote from Maken just boggles my mind. Who is it refering to? Not to me, that's for sure. Not to any other single Christian guys I know right now either. I've never dated just for the fun of it, but always with marriage in mind. Most of the time, I haven't even gotten to date three or four, and the times I did I was seriously thinking about marriage. The last serious relationship I was in, the girl dumped me for another guy after going out with him behind my back. Just to be clear, too, it's not that I want to sit around being angry about that. I'm grateful it ended actually, for probably obvious reasons.

I just really don't get this need Maken seems to have to continually stereotype whole swaths of people based on the least charitable assumptions possible. It's just crazy. It certainly doesn't smack of New Testament Christianity either. I think what we see in Maken is the sad result produced when personal animosity and culture war thinking get confused with the gospel.

2/7/07, 4:59 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Anon,

You said:
This quote from Maken just boggles my mind. Who is it refering to? Not to me, that's for sure. Not to any other single Christian guys I know right now either. I've never dated just for the fun of it, but always with marriage in mind. Most of the time, I haven't even gotten to date three or four, and the times I did I was seriously thinking about marriage.

Actually, this comes from Joshua Harris, not from Debbie Maken. Joshua Harris put this idea in the Christian community that dating somehow involved jumping from relationship to relationship with no desire to get married. Debbie Maken appears to be picking up on this.

BTW, I saw something interesting today. I always read the Boundless Line blog [actually, other than being marriage mandate and courtship, they have really good blog entries], and today I ran across this blog entry from Steve Watters:

http://www.boundlessline.org/2007/02/meet_the_atalan.html

Apparently, the article says that companies are now looking at a marketing group that consists of women who "Are Pushing Back the Schedule for Marriage and Family to Enjoy the 'Me' Years." I mean, I don't necessarily think it is of high importance, as I do not believe delay of marriage is a sin, but you are guys right that men are always "blamed" for delay of marriage, and yet here you have an article saying that it occurs on both sides to the point where you actually can market women with the idea of protracted singleness.

2/7/07, 5:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I dated a woman who turns 40 this month. I am 41 and willing to remarry after 2 years of the single life.

After two months of very G-rated courtship, she insisted on immediate marriage and immediate pregnancy. I simply didn't know her well enough so I tried to slow things down. She didn't want to slow down and broke things off.

She is now a big advocate of the Maken philosophy of dating.

I know Debbie Maken is thrilled with her book's success. I know she did a good job of debunking the "gift" of singleness. She is, however, teaching women behaviors that push men away.

Perhaps her book should be titled "Getting Serious About Alienating Men". I won't date another woman who follows the Maken plan. It's just not worth the frustration.

2/7/07, 5:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>> With no sense of shame (or purpose) today, men can hop, skip, and jump from one girlfriend to the next, while women are told to wait on the Lord" <<<

Okay, I've done this. Oftentimes, the pursuit is better than the catch.

2/7/07, 8:14 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

This is priceless. Go the Maken's blog, click on the comments and read her 9:37 PM comment (#16). Maken writes (in response to someone questioning her approach):
--------------------------
It is precisely because I care for the feelings of Christian men that I have advocated to women that they empower men to be men. (That is if men actually want to be men-- maybe that is what some men may be trying to avoid here).
--------------------------
This woman is delusional if she thinks (most) guys are gonna swallow this line after reading her book and her blog. Sorry Debbie, not buying it - we're guys but we're not stupid. You're continual and blatant disregard for the issues dissenting men have raised speaks for itself. Also, it's hard to take her characterization of her approach as 'empowering men to be men' seriously.

Another stunning insight:
----------------------------
I think that those men who would actually be put off by what I suggest in the book, need to revisit their manhood, and see if it even exists.
----------------------------
Translation: If a guy disagrees with me he probably doesn't even qualify as a man. I'm inclined to believe it's more reasonable to question the manhood of a guy who puts up with this tripe.

And then:
----------------------------
As far as the "eunuch" comment, I am so glad I said it. NO REGRETS!! I am glad some single men now realize that they will have to give account, and if they don't like it, move on to the next woman, to whom they will have to give account, and keep the cycle going. It is not the "eunuch" comment that bothers you or any of the other internet bachelor bloggers, you hate accountability, and you will do anything, even warn single women with feigned "or-else we won't even date you's," to avoid the discussion that your lax parents should be having with you everyday of your life.
----------------------------
Here again, we see Maken using her special powers to peer into the hearts of those who disagree with her. It's not the "eunuch comment" that bothers us, we just don't want to be held accountable! It's all so simple!

Apparently, Maken regards insults and contempt as legitimate tools of accountability. I can only wonder how she holds her husband accountable.

By the way, the 'feigned or-else we won't even date you' warnings are apparently not feigned. Even she acknowledges that guys on this side of the fence will just move on from the women in question.

In the end, it will probably all work out. Most men have enough self-respect and common sense to avoid a relationship with such a woman and most of these women will chase away all but the whipped, guilt-ridden doormats that are willing to tolerate them.

2/8/07, 4:38 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

My post immediately above refers to the comments section of Makens post 'REFLECTIONS ON SINGLENESS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM'.

2/8/07, 8:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That was my comment on Debbie's blog that got her started. All I wanted was for Debbie to admit men have a say in this debate.

Obviously, we can speak up, but only to agree with her and shame ourselves.

Debbie can sell books and have a great time being a minor celebrity, but the impact of her book is mainly irritation from men and the teaching of very bad dating habits to women.

One would think Debbie would want to incorporate men's feelings and perspectives into a book about bringing the sexes together in marriage. Instead, the book is creating alienation. I suspect Debbie doesn't care if this happens. She makes a few dollars and a few thousand women adopt bad ideas which keep them single much longer. If that was the goal - bravo Madame!

2/8/07, 9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is not the "eunuch" comment that bothers you or any of the other internet bachelor bloggers, you hate accountability, and you will do anything, even warn single women with feigned "or-else we won't even date you's," to avoid the discussion that your lax parents should be having with you everyday of your life."

I like the fact that Maken feels free to insult the integrity of these people’s “lax parents” as well. Apparently, everyone who’s not busy whipping everyone around them into a frenzy to get married is an utter moral failure. She is incapable of imagining that any honest person might not be immediately bowled over by her arguments.

As for the accountability remark, not only do I have accountability as part of a men’s group at my church where I share my life, confess sin, and work through problems, etc., I actually ask my pastor point blank about the mandatory marriage thing and whether I should be more actively pursuing a relationship. I don’t have time to go into the answer he gave here, but suffice it to say he didn’t endorse Maken’s vision of how things should be. In fact, at one point he asked me why I even wasted my time worrying about it. I guess he’s an evil agent of moral destruction too, daring to have a different opinion than Maken. How dare he.

I just can’t fathom how anyone can’t see the bile and bitterness that lies behind almost every word this woman speaks.

2/8/07, 9:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I like the fact that Maken feels free to insult the integrity of these people’s “lax parents” as well"


That is precious. The ENTIRE comment section of this blog is dedicated to bitching about one woman and one book.

The minute this woman responds to you, all of you whine about her "bitterness," attack (among many other things) her ability as a lawyer.

I have never seen this many easily offended men (although we all know that the same 4-5 men keep posting here)

oh..sorry about the personal attack.

GH

2/8/07, 11:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The minute this woman responds to you, all of you whine about her "bitterness," attack (among many other things) her ability as a lawyer.

GH,

I'm not "whinning" because Maken "responded" to anything. Nor have I ever made personally insulting remarks about Maken (her ability as a lawyer, her character, etc.) in the same way she does about single men. The fact that anyone can actually think that the way Maken talks is in any way commensurate with the spirit of the New Testament truly is amazing to me.

2/8/07, 12:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you GH. You are absolutely right that it's the same 4-5 guys doing all the whining and whinging here. Pure sour grapes from guys that can't deal with even the slightest routine rejection that goes along with the realities of mate-finding for both sexes. That's what it's about.

Anakin, you've betray yourself, as someone who really isn't a "niceguy" with this remark: "The way women pressure men into marriage is no more honorable than the way men pressure women into sex." It just makes it so plain that you don't understand a thing about life. Almost all men, real men-- the ones who make up the bulk of the male population of evangelical churches-- accept that everything we enjoy about civilization is predicated on the feminine agenda for no sex without commitment. And please, spare us the freak stories about wanton single mothers in church-- we've rehashed the limits of that excuse enough times already. It's all a big distraction from the one, indisputable fact that makes you all squirm: THERE AREN'T ENOUGH SINGLE MEN IN THE CHURCH. But of course the women there are to just as much to blame for that as men, right? Because every issue is a two way street, right?

Wrong. There are some areas where men hold the greater weight of responsibility. And it seems that men only listen to leaders, be they male or female, that hold them to that. Which is why so many men ARE listening to Debbie Maken these days. Just check out the recent offerings on Boundless and The Line-- all about men stepping up to the plate and dealing with rejection.

Speaking of pity parties, the one you boys have going here is getting smaller and smaller.

2/8/07, 1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Pure sour grapes from guys that can't deal with even the slightest routine rejection that goes along with the realities of mate-finding for both sexes. That's what it's about."

"And it seems that men only listen to leaders, be they male or female, that hold them to that. Which is why so many men ARE listening to Debbie Maken these days."


Anonymous,

I listen to leaders who I trust, who I know have walked with God, whose words and life display God's wisdom, and who know and care about me as a person, none of which applies to Debbie Maken in any way shape or form whatsoever. In any case, even if your baseless speculations about what I can or cannot handle (since you know nothing of my life) were true, that still wouldn't make Debbie Maken's teachings or behavior either true or biblical.

2/8/07, 1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Which is why so many men ARE listening to Debbie Maken these days."

I don't know any men who are embracing shaming language, being condemned as a eunuch, etc.

2/8/07, 2:53 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon 1:27 wrote:
----------------
It's a big distraction from the one, indisputable fact that makes you all squirm: THERE AREN'T ENOUGH SINGLE MEN IN THE CHURCH.
----------------
This is silly. I can assure you that the lack of single men in the Church does not make me squirm. On the contrary, it's the single women who are doing all the squirming over this issue. And regardless of all the wishful thinking of the handful of Maken disciples over at her site, few men will be attracted to such women.

And GH, speaking of being 'easily offended'; what does it say of those on your side of the fence that nearly the mere sight of a content bachelor is enough to send you into a fit of shame and blame, intent on guilting him into marriage?

And if you wish to gauge Maken's impact by the mere handful of men who post here, what should we make of the very few men who post in agreement over at her site?

2/8/07, 3:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I can assure you that the lack of single men in the Church does not make me squirm." Basically what you are saying is that you don't care about the women in your church community. As far as you're concerned, none of them would be interested in you, so they deserve to be single.

That you have been caught blaming those surplus women for their singleness (and yours too) when there's this other, excruciatingly obvious cause that keeps getting pointed out to you must be awfully embarrassing for you, Wombatty. Squirm away.

2/8/07, 4:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WOW - the fact that this guy has spent so much of his time blogging on this ONE book on singleness, one of the most original, radical Christian books ever written on this topic, shows how powerfully Debby Maken has touched his nerve. It is not pleasant to feel a sense of guilt when sin is exposed, and I doubt anyone would waste their time writing about a book unless it pricked their consciences.

2/8/07, 5:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Basically what you are saying is that you don't care about the women in your church community."

Come again? Unless one first begins with the assumption that life without marriage is not worth living for any and all women, and that, therefore, the shortage of single men in the church means a meaningless life for those who don't get married, this statement just completely begs the question. Since the validity of that assumption is one of the very things being disputed here, your statement is indeed question begging, not to mention uncharitable.

2/8/07, 5:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"WOW - the fact that this guy has spent so much of his time blogging on this ONE book on singleness, one of the most original, radical Christian books ever written on this topic, shows how powerfully Debby Maken has touched his nerve. It is not pleasant to feel a sense of guilt when sin is exposed, and I doubt anyone would waste their time writing about a book unless it pricked their consciences."

Uh, okay. Nothing here but personal opinion and pure baseless self-serving speculation.

2/8/07, 5:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Unless one first begins with the assumption that life without marriage is not worth living for any and all women, and that, therefore, the shortage of single men in the church means a meaningless life for those who don't get married, this statement just completely begs the question"

This may come as a huge shock to you, as a frigid bachelor (oh yes, men can be frigid too), but most other people, men or women, do mind whether or not they marry, and suffer the effects when they don't. Either you have the humanity to care about that or you don't. If not, you're hardly in any position to complain that anyone's being charitable to you.

2/8/07, 5:42 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon wrote:
------------------
That you have been caught blaming those surplus women for their singleness (and yours too) when there's this other, excruciatingly obvious cause that keeps getting pointed out to you must be awfully embarrassing for you, Wombatty. Squirm away.
--------------------
I have only pointed out that women are not as blameless in this whole drama as you would have us believe.

I have not blamed women for my singleness. I have pointed out numerous times that I am single because I choose to be. I'm terribly sorry if that offends you ;-)

I have never denied that there is a shortage men in the Church and I have no doubt it is a big factor. But that's beside the pomt. Much if not all of Maken's ire is aimed at the men who are in the Church.

I'm curious as to how you would react if the majority of the men who are in the Church up and got married. Given the numbers, there would still be plenty of single women. What then? I suppose Maken might write a book about how it is men's biblical duty to go fetch husbands for the single women in church. Throw in some name calling and fingerpointing and you've got yourself a movement.

2/8/07, 5:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"This may come as a huge shock to you, as a frigid bachelor (oh yes, men can be frigid too), but most other people, men or women, do mind whether or not they marry, and suffer the effects when they don't. Either you have the humanity to care about that or you don't. If not, you're hardly in any position to complain that anyone's being charitable to you."

Per usual, you are wrong again.

The issue is not whether or not one wants to get married or whether or not one minds whether they do or not. The first issue is whether or not some men are obligated to get married just because the women around them happen to want to. I happen to believe there is no such obligation. I believe there are many obligations spelled out for us clearly in the New Testament, but that doesn't happen to be one of them.

Second, the issue is whether or not one can have a meaningful and worthwhile life even if one doesn't get what one wants. I think we can. You apparently, think we can't. If that's the case, then I'm sorry for you because I think you will be a very unhappy person who will never be satisfied.

Lastly, I ask that others be charitable to me and I attempt to be charitable to others because I believe that every human being bears the image of God and should be treated as such.

2/8/07, 6:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I have never denied that there is a shortage men in the Church and I have no doubt it is a big factor. But that's beside the pomt." Actually the shortage of men in the church is the point-- and one that none of the guys who frequent this site have given much treatment (because that would require some measure of compassion for women in that predicament, something that none of you could possibly deign to muster). And BTW- the bulk of Maken's argument is actually about Christian guys who are non-attenders or half-baked attender. All this fuss from regular attending guys, who apparently have tried!

-----

"Per usual, you are wrong again...The issue is not whether or not one wants to get married or whether or not one minds whether they do or not. The first issue is whether or not some men are obligated to get married just because the women around them happen to want to"

Nuh-uh-- you aren't going to side step around this one, Anakin. Even if one were to concede that bit more individual liberty is granted than Maken suggests, the fact remains that you exposed your contemptous indifference for marriage that is the foundation of your argument. And why should anyone believe that you actually care about the sufferings of surplus single women, or anyone who wants to get married but can't? Everytime it's brought up you take this stony stance that they must have some kind of spiritual weakness, as if they're lacking in faith or something. For all your talk about being charitable, you simply don't care.

2/8/07, 7:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Nuh-uh-- you aren't going to side step around this one, Anakin. Even if one were to concede that bit more individual liberty is granted than Maken suggests, the fact remains that you exposed your contemptous indifference for marriage that is the foundation of your argument."

I couldn't resist jumping in here. I don't see anywhere that Anakin is side-stepping the issue. Throughout this blog, a reverence and respect for marriage is shown. The issue is Debbie Maken's use of scripture to justify her subjective views on marriage and dating.

Maken has made her point clearly. She has outright contempt for the opinions of men, yet doesn't understand why they won't jump into marriages quickly.

The key arguments remain unresolved. Maken's book doesn't past the scriptural test. Second, she evidences a fundamental disrespect of men which smacks of feminism. Third, no good will come from Maken's message. Basic reforms of family law will do much more to encourage marriage than an obnoxious attorney attempting to shame the few remaining men in the churches to walk away from Christian women.

2/8/07, 7:27 PM  
Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...


Nuh-uh-- you aren't going to side step around this one, Anakin.


Anonymous, I didn't write that comment to you.

2/8/07, 7:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"For all your talk about being charitable, you simply don't care."

Well, first of all, I'm not Anakin.

Second of all, you once again presume to know what goes on inside my head and heart, which is simply irrelevant to the issue at hand. Whether I care is not the issue being debated here.

Third of all, you presume that "caring" means seeing things your way, and that if I care I must therefore pursue marriage to some woman just because she wants it.

But you are just wrong, on every count, and no amount of talking is going to change that.

2/8/07, 7:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"'Nuh-uh-- you aren't going to side step around this one, Anakin.'

Anonymous, I didn't write that comment to you."

Whether you did or you didn't, it's addressed to you all the same, Anakin. Not a single article on your blog could convince anyone that you care in the least about your Christian sisters. I'd like to see you try to sift through them to see if you could find any compassionate words about their situation of being in surplus. Maybe one perfunctory mention lost in a sea of gleeful vengance. You just don't have the warmth or generosity of spirit-- just look at what you've written over the past year.

2/8/07, 8:48 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

To the Anon concerned about our 'lack of compassion':

First, your characterization of Anakin and the rest of us is way off-base. Apparently, in your world the only compassionate man is a married one or a shame-riddled bachelor desperate to calm his conscience by getting marriage.

However, I'll grant your point for the sake of argument. How should we rectify this shortcoming? How about this: we will take your issues as seriously as Maken et al. take the concerns raised by men. That way we could really get somewhere. After all, Mrs. Maken says it's It is precisely because she cares for the feelings of Christian men that she writes what she writes. Contempt as compassion; who would have guessed?

2/9/07, 1:50 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon 9:32 wrote:
----------------------
I have accountability as part of a men’s group at my church where I share my life, confess sin, and work through problems, etc.,
----------------------

Don't be silly Anon, we all know that a man cannot be kept in line except under the watchful eye of a wife ;-)

2/9/07, 7:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wom,

I know you were being sarcatic but you have NO idea the accountability that takes place when you actually SHARE your life with someone. Pastors, friends, dogs, cats, rats can NEVER replace that.

Besides from being a parent, it is one of the most Christian experiences in life.

Everyday you get to experience dying to self. Everyday you put (or ought to) someone else before you.

NOTHING in life can teach you that except marriage and parenthood.

GH

2/9/07, 9:18 AM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

MH,

You said:
NOTHING in life can teach you that except marriage and parenthood.

Really, not even the Holy Spirit of God? Are you going back to the Roman Catholic idea that marriage is a means of grace and a sacrament?

Worse than that, we DO have accountability, it is just not the accountability you want. Of course, we are under no obligation to live up to your standards, only to the standards of God's word. Therefore, if you want to make a scriptural argument, then do so. Otherwise you are only proving our point about the mandatory marriage movement, and that is that instead of answering their critics, the make like King James Only advocates, and get nasty.

Harsh words are intimidating, but they are no substitute for argument. Of course, they killed Socrates for prying in with sound reasoning...I guess we are in good company!

2/9/07, 9:44 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon:

I have no doubt that marriage provides a high level of accountability, I have never disputed that. This fact, however, does not establish that marriage is either necessary or mandatory.

Further, it is not the only means of legitmate and effective accountabilty, least of all by bibilical standards.

As to whether marriage and parenthood are the only means of daily 'dying to self', this is doubtful. If these were the only means of doing so, it seems Christ might have mentioned it in conjuction with His command to continually deny self.

2/9/07, 10:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PC and Socrates...oh yeah...there are two names that really fit together side by side.....rotflmao
...Or maybe that's just an AD HOMINEM argument I'm making here....

2/9/07, 10:37 AM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Well, anon, prove it. As I said, keep doing this, and you are simply proving that we are just like socrates...we come along and challange the statis quo with tough, challanging arguments, and all we get is harsh language.

As I said, harsh language may be intimidating...but it is no substitute for an argument. While it is tempting to use that kind of language, I would rather be Biblically and Philosophically correct.

2/9/07, 11:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have you people forgotten that God and not man created marriage?

PC, Your ego is amazing. The only thing that you and Socrates have in common is your disain for family. Crito was critical of Socrates for abandoning them.

GH

2/9/07, 1:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

them being his 3 sons.


GH

2/9/07, 1:29 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

GH:

Perhaps PC's point is better rephrased to emphasize the similarity between the opponents of Socrates and your side of the debate. PC's point is that Socrates' opponents put up alot of bluff and bluster, harsh invective, etc. Yet for all of this, they didn't address his arguments.

Baseless speculations about motives (e.g. you just don't want to be accountable) and equally baseless aaccusations (e.g. disdain for the family) are no substitute for a rational argument addressing substabtive objections.

Incidentally, since when does disagreement with marriage mandate theology constitute disdain for the family? I've never been a '3rd world missionary' and I have no plans to be one. That does not mean I have disdain for those who are. In fact, I have alot of respect and admiration for them.

(No, I am not comparing marriage to missionary work. The point is that just because you don't have or necessarily want something does not mean to have disdain for it.)

2/9/07, 3:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it all comes back to the fact that good Christian men are very aware that Maken's advice isn't scriptural as she claims.

The real harm is being done to women who follow her bad advice. Maken's attitude toward all men in the church (whether nominal Christians or devout) is disdainful.

I don't think good Christian men will be called to account for not following Maken's advice. I KNOW Maken will be called to account for a very one-sided and destructive message.

2/9/07, 5:55 PM  
Blogger Jake said...

wombatty:
"Incidentally, since when does disagreement with marriage mandate theology constitute disdain for the family?"

Indeed. From the way these people talk, you would think there are only 2 possible points of view: agreement with them, and a selfish, worldly desire to spend one's life doing nothing more than playing video games and see the church go extinct.

Pretty much the number 1 thing I'd like in life right now is to get married and begin having children, but in part because of the attitudes put out there by the likes of Debbie Maken and Boundless (i.e., men are selfish and evil and need to be reoriented toward women's noble and pure desires), I can't find a Christian girl who's willing to marry me. Yet, according to them, I'm the problem, just because I don't believe the Bible commands everyone to get married ASAP!

There are a couple of non-Christian women at work who are interested in me, and while I don't think I'd ever actually do it, I have to admit it's tempting to try dating them. At least they'd be willing to have dinner with me without grilling me on whether I'd ever missed my daily Bible reading or why I don't want to become a missionary in a 3rd world country.

2/9/07, 7:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know, call me cynical, but I think the Maken/Opposition debate has touched a nerve without really mentioning the truth.

Many of the men attacked by Maken are very good Christians who at the very least try to live as much of a Christian life as they can. I consider myself one of these men.

Many of the unmarried women are age 35+ and are angry with the few Christian men they know. Why? Because these men won't fall to their knees and profess love for women who probably would have rejected them earlier on. I'm 40 and the Christian women I meet aged 36-45 are so desperate for marriage after a lifetime of libertine sex and dozens of boyfriends, they don't care what I feel - they simply want marriage to a strong Christian man.

We meet, we talk - we have a good time together. They talk about their past...I feel uncomfortable about dating a woman who has slept with dozens of men. We part ways, she tells me I'm a eunuch, immature, childish. Nevermind that I have had a long-term Christian marriage behind me. If I won't marry the town tramp who suddenly reforms at age 39, I'm a cad.

We've established that Maken's book is more pop culture than scripturally based. Why not get to the point? The only readers who embrace her message are desperate women over 35 who will not compromise. They are looking for a devout Christian who earns a huge salary and wants to have 2.5 children immediately.

To those ladies, I say "relax". Approach men with respect and honesty. If a relationship is possible, then "more power to you". But don't buy into the shame and blame routine. The few men who may want you are VERY turned off by it.

Debbie Maken is a child intellectually. Her book is only candy to the minds of women with no hope. Her influence will pass. The real danger is to the women who believe her nonsense. Want an example? Go to thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com. Many women (such as the writer of the cited blog) are so devoted to Maken, they cannot see any other perspective. Is it desperation? Foolishness?

Probably just loneliness. I honestly have sympathy for women who literally ache for male love and having children. However, it is the bad choices they have made that have put them where they are. Maken only offers blame and anger. Her message leads to more pain.

I hope all single women who desire husbands find happiness. The first step in that direction is tossing Maken's book in the garbage and simply being honest with men.

I know this post has nothing to do with addressing Maken's book scripturally, but I do care about the very large numbers of unhappy women out there. My instincts tell me they are being misled by Maken. I would like to date a devout Christian woman, but I cannot wait for them to come to their senses. It is time to move on. I hope Christian single women will try to gain perspective instead of righteous anger.

2/9/07, 9:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good post, Anon 9:09pm

I think the ladies commenting here are, indeed, a source of self-inflicted parody. Not to worry, they'll grow out of their codependent, narcissistic, and/ or histrionic revery eventually.

What I find interesting is the number of females who go out of their way to tell a man how he is supposed to act, behave, etc? Having never been a man herself, how can Debbie Maken write about it? Now, reverse the role. Imagine a man writing a book on how a woman is supposed to act, behave with the same ill contempt Mrs. Maken pours into it. It would be considered misogyny.

2/10/07, 7:10 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Jake:

Maken's perspective is beset with false dichotomies. You're either married or you are an immature, irresponsible loser. You're a husband or you disdain the family. You're pursuing marriage or you're just trying to avoide accountability.

One of the strangest things about the Makenites is how they react to guys like you. I would think they would be cheering you on and urging women to clean up their act. Yet, despite all of your effort to find a wife, and regardless of the resistant women you encounter, it's still your fault that your single.

This is another thing that surprised me about Maken's book. I would have thought that such a book would have included a section on helping women prepare themselves for marriage. Of course, this would have included discussing the ways women often fall short, why it happens and a bible-based suggestions for change. Instead, Maken just beats up on men.

I have no problem acknowledging that men are part of the problem (even a big part), why is it so hard for Makenites to admit the same of women? These people need a good dose of 'gender humility'.

This is why I feel sorry for the men who marry (some) of these women. Someone who is so blind that they cannot even see the part women have played in this drama is unlikely to see her own faults within marriage. He is gonna get blamed for everything.

More blame-shifting:
Valerie (Kyriosity) at Makens blog has this to say:
------------------------
If anyone has a problem with women being encouraged to be confrontational, they can once again lay the responsibility at the feet of passive men in the Church. If abandoned to fend for ourselves, then fend is exactly what some Christian women will do, and it's hardly fair to blame them. But if Christian men everywhere would take seriously the role of protecting the single women in their lives from unworthy suitors, then no doubt we ladies would be as sweet and demure in our dealings as said suitors could ever wish for us to be.
--------------------------
See? It's even our fault that these women are snotty, condescending and confrontational. Why it is that a simple, 'Why are you still single?' is insuffucient isn't explained. Why the need for insults?

Of course, just regular joes like us cannot be blamed for this. After all, Maken tells us that 'inter-gender' friendships are bad. (How else am I supposed to get lonely and desperate?) Thus, I can only play this role for my sisters. What woman is going to trust a man she doesn't know to do this job? No matter, it's still my fault.

Exit question:

What comes to mind when you hear someone going on and on about how someone else is always at fault for their predicament?

2/10/07, 7:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Maken's perspective is beset with false dichotomies. You're either married or you are an immature, irresponsible loser. You're a husband or you disdain the family. You're pursuing marriage or you're just trying to avoide accountability."

Amen Wombatty! This is one of the things that continually comes through in Maken's thinking and writing. Everything is extreme black and white with no possibility in between.

This came through loud and clear in her discussion with Andreas Kostenberger. Maken kept asserting and still asserts that Kostenberger's view of things must necessarily lead to a radical subjectivity, which completely undermines marraige. Then it came through again in her blog post about gay marriage. Once again, you either share her extremely narrow and rigid views about marriage and singleness, or else you're someone automatically on the slippery slope to gay marriage.

It's an extremely simplistic view of the world and it prevents Maken and her followers from being able to hear any voices that are not already in agreement with them. It's like a built in defense mechanism that allows them to automatically dismiss every criticism without having to hear it. As Puritancalvinist has alluded to, it is reminiscent of those King James Only advocates who, the moment you disagree with them, accuse you of not loving the word of God.

It's also a sure sign to me that Maken isn't someone to be taken seriously.

2/10/07, 8:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“The tactics of intimidation and insinuation alternate in Satan’s plan of campaign. He plays both the bully and the beguiler.”

I believe Scripturally Single and all the posters on Debbie's blog are really just one person who can't get a date and feels it necessary to attack this valiant Christian soldier. Debbie is fighting Satan while you pathetic losers are serving him.

If you "Christian" men are the best that Western Christianity has to offer, then we "Makenites" hope NEVER to marry!!

2/10/07, 11:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I believe Scripturally Single and all the posters on Debbie's blog are really just one person who can't get a date and feels it necessary to attack this valiant Christian soldier. Debbie is fighting Satan while you pathetic losers are serving him.

If you "Christian" men are the best that Western Christianity has to offer, then we "Makenites" hope NEVER to marry!!"


Per usual, this is nothing more than unfounded opinion, baseless speculation and character assisination. I can assure that I do not wish or plans to marry a Makenite either. Though I confess that I find it strange that someone who believes that it is basically impossible to be a Christian without marrying should wish never to marry.

Also, if we're really just one person whose pretending to be many, then it makes no sense to refer to us as Christian "men," and to state that "we" Makenites hope never to marry "me." In fact, if I'm just one guy, then what's the worry, really? There should be multitudes of Maken loving men out there ready to rush forward and do their "Christian" duty.

2/10/07, 2:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>> are really just one person who can't get a date <<<

>>> If you "Christian" men <<<

Sounds like you're not too convinced about the "one poster bandit" theory. LOL

>>> then we "Makenites" hope NEVER to marry!! <<<

Marry? Gee, aren't you getting ahead of yourself? I figured the men would have to look at you first. ;)

2/10/07, 2:28 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon 11:52 wrote:
--------------------------------
I believe Scripturally Single and all the posters on Debbie's blog are really just one person who can't get a date and feels it necessary to attack this valiant Christian soldier. Debbie is fighting Satan while you pathetic losers are serving him.

If you "Christian" men are the best that Western Christianity has to offer, then we "Makenites" hope NEVER to marry!!
--------------------------------
Another shining example of rational argument! Note the methodical engagement of the issues and...oh, never mind. And yet another false dichotomy: either you are pursuing marriage or you can't get a date.

If this mentality is typical of Maken's disciples, no wonder they don't have guys chasing them around. Who would want to catch one of those fish?

Thanks for making PC's point.

2/10/07, 5:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wom,

You wrote

"And yet another false dichotomy: either you are pursuing marriage or you can't get a date."

You make NO sense.

You yourself have written in the past (ON THIS BLG) that you do NOT date because you are NOT pursuing marriage.

Are you living a false dichtomy?

Work on your logic or work on keeping track of your statements.

GH

2/11/07, 12:28 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2/11/07, 1:22 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

GH:

Time to work on your own logic. There is a difference between choosing not to date and not being able to get a date.

The latter implies that one is trying, unsuccessfully, to get a date. Since I have not even tried to get a date in quite a while, it's hardly logical to say that I can't get a date. I won't know if I can get a date until I try and I won't try until I want to do so.

I'll give you credit for actually adressing my argument instead of resorting to insults, but your reasoning is more than a bit lacking.

2/11/07, 1:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just found this blog and I'm a little confused by the disagreement. It appears the guys are right and the girls are angry because nobody wants to get married anymore.

I know there are a few guys who have a higher calling and can't marry for that reason, but there are an awful lot of single women these days. Back when I was dating in the 1970s, the only girls who were very serious about church were the girls who no guy wanted to marry. When they finally did get married, they put their beliefs back in perspective.

You can live a good Christian life by living life and sharing your beliefs. I don't think being part of 100% Christian groups and ladies tea parties is a good idea. You just might wake up at age 40 wondering what happened.

Let me tell you. When you get old, you really do become much more grateful to God for everything in your life. You realize you have to accept things as they are, enjoy the people in your life for what they are.

This Debbie lady is not doing right by all the single ladies that read her book. I think someone else said she was a fad and I think that is right.

Back when I was younger, everyone was reading the Hal Lindsey books. Our pastor told us it was a sure bet that Jesus would return by 1984, no later. Half the congregation bought survival supplies. It seems silly to think about it now, but it was a real belief at the time.

I think this new marriage concern is just a big dustup by the ladies who don't like all the women's lib they stirred up for so many years. You gals wanted to be treated like men and do everything the boys do. Well, the boys stepped back and let you do your thing, didn't they? Now you are all upset because you're too independent and too much like the boys to be married? Try renting some old movies and learn how the real women were. That Debbie Maken is like a Gloria Steinem; angry, calling people names, etc.

You younger folk should respect those singles who are devout. All the others need to drop the women's lib stuff and only get married in non-alimony states. Harsh advice I know, but it's my two cents.

2/11/07, 5:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shhh, Anon 5:43pm. You may not realize it but, um, Protracted singleness is a con~spir~acy conjured up by males to keep these girls unhappy.

I know. It's not fair.


I'll pray for these "Christian" gals, though, that one day they find their "human adaptoid", you know, that wealthy (at least upper middle class), tall, handsome, Agape-loving, studly, obedient, responsive, passionate, submissive husband who faithfully adheres to his wife's "to do" list and "be a may-aaaan".

Oh, and, um, sorry, no pizza delivery losers need apply. Low status men, similar to acne and leprosy, deviate from the process. ;))

2/11/07, 7:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wombatty said:

"In the end, it will probably all work out. Most men have enough self-respect and common sense to avoid a relationship with such a woman and most of these women will chase away all but the whipped, guilt-ridden doormats that are willing to tolerate them."

I think this is the critical point. The "Maken Experience" is all about putting a scriptural face on middle aged women throwing a temper tantrum because their Prince Charming never arrived.

Maken's book is almost a masterpiece in this regard. It soothes the hearts of long time single women, and artfully puts the entire responsibility for their unhappiness on men; not just ordinary bad men, but bad single Christian men. They have not only failed the Lord, but are "in sin" if not pursuing marriage.

If I was a bitter 40 year old spinster, I'd be in utter joy to read Maken's book. All my poor prioritizing, my bad choices, my career coming first; it is all good and had no impact on being single. It was always the guys.

In the not too distant future, we'll have scores of women over 50 sitting around with faces etched with bitterness; clutching worn and yellowed copies of Maken's book. Wondering...just maybe..maybe Maken was very wrong.

2/11/07, 8:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>> I think this is the critical point. The "Maken Experience" is all about putting a scriptural face on middle aged women throwing a temper tantrum because their Prince Charming never arrived. <<<

You, my friend, are exactly right. Nicely done. If you were a reviewer of books, this description would have to be in bold.

>>> Maken's book is almost a masterpiece in this regard. It soothes the hearts of long time single women, and artfully puts the entire responsibility for their unhappiness on men; not just ordinary bad men, but bad single Christian men. They have not only failed the Lord, but are "in sin" if not pursuing marriage. <<<


Many Christian gals, while keeping silent about the "you go girl" philosophy, had no idea of the consequences, the ramifications, as they became slowly inculcated by the feminist culture/ revolution themselves.

In other words, by sitting on their hands and remaining silent, "our" spiritual sisters (many of them, at least) became accomplices to the feminist pie; not actively throwing themselves on the altar, no, but more like parasites benefitting from the breadcrumbs of a society that their worldly sisters "helped" create and nurture.

Soon, the phrase, "I'm not a feminist, but ... " would become the familiar standard stamp of approval for many girls who "claim" they reject the toxic influences of "female empowerment".

2/12/07, 7:29 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Mrs. Maken posted an interesting comment on her latest post in response to another commmenter. A guy brings up (in Maken’s words) 'overseas bride shopping'. He relates that ‘in my own case, I wanted to marry, and had a lot of "assistance" from married women in the Church, but all the women I met gave me the message that they deserved better than me.’ So he married a woman from overseas.

Maken then relates an account of a guy she knew who did this after repeated failure in the U.S. to find a wife, ‘…because some poor social habits and not being able to muzzle some thoughts kept getting him rejected here.’ She goes on:
----------------------------------
Often, what I see with the average candidate that goes overseas bride shopping is that they do not want to personally develop themselves or gain the requisite masculinity to attract women, so they simply choose to blame the American women. So, the question is--doesn't this ordinary man have some personal responsibility to
"put his best foot forward," so that a woman can decide to take a chance on him?
----------------------------------

This got me thinking.

Didn't this guy simply 'employ agency' (to use Maken's phrase)? Or is that advice only good for women? After all, this is essentially how Maken found her husband is it not? Why then is her knee-jerk reaction to a guy doing it to question his motivations?

Or perhaps this is an unconscious confession that she herself had to go this route because of her own 'poor social habits'. Might Maken have ‘…some poor social habits, being unable to muzzle some thoughts kept getting her rejected here’ (her eunuch question comes to mind). Maybe she simply 'did not want to personally develop herself or gain the requisite femininity to attract men’. Instead, could it be that she simply chose to blame American men? Lastly, I wonder if Maken ever asked herself her own question: ‘Don’t I have a personal responsibility to “put my best foot forward”, so that a man might want to take a chance on me?’ Given how proud she is of her eunuch question, she obviously doesn’t believe that women have any such personal responsibility.

This post was certainly much less condescending than usual, and I give her credit for that.

Surprisingly, she also wonders if some women have an over-inflated sense of their own accomplishments that lead them to reject decent guys as beneath them (though she manages to blame even this on her parents).

I also acknowledge that men and women are different and thus have different roles in the ‘mating dance’.

However, all of the issues she raises in this post are issues of personal responsibility that apply in equal measure to both sexes. Her followers would be well served if she would encourage women to ask these questions of themselves as well as of prospective suitors.

2/13/07, 8:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anakin, thanks for your continuing efforts in debunking Maken's work (if I can even call it that.). Make me Reader #6!

Oh, when I thumbed through it and found her Sex in the City quotes, it through me off. How sad so many so-called Christian women are watching that and Desperate Housewives. Gee, and they wonder why they are still single. As for me and my house, I want a truly godly woman who trusts in the Sovereignty of the Lord!

2/14/07, 12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maken's larger point is that men have to "step up" and be leaders again.

If men should be encouraged to reclaim leadership roles, then let's go the distance. Women, quit your jobs and move in with your elderly parents. Debbie, flush that law degree! Girls, learn to cook and clean and be virtuous. Be ready to birth babies and sew quilts. If you girls really want traditional men, you cannot remain strident girl-power feminists. Meeting men halfway is something very few Christian women are prepared to do.

What do they do instead? What solutions do the ladies have?

Well, Carolyn McCulley teaches the girls to prepare for marriage for many years. To read about it, to watch others live a married life, but to lead a group of single women and never date the single men around you.

Debbie Maken teaches girls to be assertive about finding a husband, but also to be obnoxious and abrasive - and to think the worst of men. She also has a following of single women, most of whom are learning to push men away.

And lastly we have a newcomer with Catholic Dawn Eden, who suggests 20 years of promiscuity followed by quick conversion to a religious life when the local rock and roll drummer doesn't try to pick you up anymore. I don't want to know who follows Dawn's advice.

Not any of the most popular Christian women writers have lived the life of a traditional Christian woman. One decided to stay single for life to live vicariously through the marriages of others. Another put career before marriage. The last put sex before everything else.

This is the creme de la creme of Christian women writers. If so, it clearly shows why a certain apostle was so against women doing any sort of teaching.

2/14/07, 7:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 7:45 PM

You said: "This is the creme de la creme of Christian women writers. If so, it clearly shows why a certain apostle was so against women doing any sort of teaching."

As much as I dislike the views of Debbie Maken, I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Maken isn't even close to being the creme de la creme of Christian women writers. I'm not sure where you get that idea, but it's an unfair characterization, in my opinion. So is your claim about Paul and women teaching, which simply comes off as insulting to women.

2/15/07, 4:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:25,

You may have a valid point in disagreeing with the previous poster.

There is disagreement on the proper role of women in the church. Many scholars believe Paul's admonition to only allow men to lead was specific to a certain culture at a certain time.

One cannot say Maken is irrelevant to Christian women; women who dominate the Church aside from leadership positions. She is the ultimate authority on dating and marriage to a great number of women.

2/15/07, 10:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

You said: "One cannot say Maken is irrelevant to Christian women; women who dominate the Church aside from leadership positions. She is the ultimate authority on dating and marriage to a great number of women."

I don't disagree with this statement overall. Though it is hard to figure how large, Maken clearly has some kind of a following among a certain segment of Christian women.

My disagreement was with the claim that Maken represents the "creme de la creme" of Christian writers. The use of that phrase suggests that the commenter is claiming that Maken represents the best of Christian writing by women. Hence the commenter's claim that this provides the reason why Paul prohibits women from teaching in the church. In other words, he is saying Maken's writing stinks, but it is the best we can expect from a woman. That insulting suggestion is what I was taking exception to.

There are many great Christian women writers whom Maken does not even come close to being on a par with. There are also many women who do not agree with Maken's views. Some of them are my friends and relations.

2/15/07, 5:53 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon 5:53

I agree with you completely on this point. Two great Christian female authors on the subject of relationships are Shaunti Feldhan and Laura Smit and I'm sure there are many more. Putting Maken in the 'best of' category is'nt very fair to the ladies who belong there.

2/16/07, 4:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No wonder women have a hard time finding husbands.

Woman Allegedly Stabs Man During Sex

By Associated Press

February 15 2007, 10:52 PM EST

TEMPE, Ariz. -- A woman has been arrested on suspicion that she tied up a man during sex, then stabbed him repeatedly with a knife and told him she likes to drink blood, police said.

Tiffany Sutton, 23, was arrested on suspicion of aggravated assault Tuesday night at a Tempe home where she and the victim were living, according to authorities.

The man, whose identity was not released, told police he had consented to being tied up but became scared when the woman attacked him with a knife.

He eventually freed himself and ran away, but Sutton chased him with a pickax, police said.

The man was taken in an ambulance to a local hospital, where he was treated for injuries.

Police said both Sutton and the man admitted that they had consumed alcohol and drugs prior to the incident.

Sutton claimed the entire encounter was consensual, police said.

2/16/07, 12:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

" It's all a big distraction from the one, indisputable fact that makes you all squirm: THERE AREN'T ENOUGH SINGLE MEN IN THE CHURCH. But of course the women there are to just as much to blame for that as men, right? Because every issue is a two way street, right?"

==First who is to "blame" for anything? I don't see Paul, or Jesus, blaming people for not marrying or marrying later in life. Thus I don't think we need to be blaming anyone (male or female).

Second there are PLENTY of single Christian men in the church (I know because I am one). The problem is that there are very few solid Christian women my age (early 30s) in the church (my church has ZERO). From my experience it seems that many of the women in the church who whine about there not being any single men in the church just are not looking around. I see single Christian men everywhere I look and I see very few single Christian women.

2/17/07, 2:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I posted this after another post by accident (sorry). This is where I wanted to post it at.


According to the blog, Maken made the following statement in her book:

"Sally was in her late thirties, owned her own home, and had a respectable job and a decent savings account. She was dating someone who, though older, was a pizza delivery boy. I was shocked. She actually became engaged to this individual, which was even more shocking. At some point she looked up and thought, This isn't fair. The engagement ended, and I have to admit I was relieved." (p. 148"

==I hate to tell Maken this, but that comment is as fleshly and worldly as it gets. What if, and I know Maken does not believe this idea, that man was who God wanted this women to marry? Because of Maken's false teachings this woman may very well have just missed out on God's best for her life. Maybe the poor guy had lost his job and that was the best he could do? She assumes he was a low class, lazy, no good, yet there are other possible reasons for his situation.

I have a masters degree, I work in an office at a state University, I am working on a second masters, and I am trying to start a teaching career in the community college system. Yet I would never, and I repeat never, date/marry anyone who had done (in the past) what the woman in Maken's account did. Why not? Because the woman is worldly, fleshly, materialistic, and carnal. You think I am being "judgmental"? You are wrong. I am just saying it like it is. The woman in the account is more interested in social status than she is interested in the person she was going to promise (BEFORE GOD) to have, to hold, and to love for better or worse till death parts them. Yet her real concern was social status. Thus she would have been lying when she made her sacred promise.

I am not saying that people should not care about a potential mate's career (goals), looks, or social status. All of that is part of the larger picture. However when one of those reasons, alone, causes a person to reject/breakup with someone there is something really, really wrong.

I have some advice for all the angry, single, Christian women Maken is talking to. Read 1Corinthians 7, read Philippians 4, and realize that marriage is not required of all believers. The Bible NEVER shames someone for staying single. It is clear that God leaves this decision up to the individual to make (in prayer and fellowship with the Lord). They also need to learn to be "content" in whatever circumstance they are in. They need to learn to trust the Sovereign God of the Universe, their Lord and Savior, to guide their lives. They need to learn to "be anxious for nothing" and they need to take their desires/needs to the Lord so He can bring them "the right" person.

As for Maken's assertion that people should be aggressive (etc). Well I would advise caution. Please keep in mind what happened to Abraham when he took things into his own hands. We only need to step out on the branch (in faith) when the Lord tells them to. Stepping out, even in faith, on that branch when the Lord has not told them to is a good way for them to fall out of a tree. Don't change churches in a desperate search for a husband/wife unless God first directs you to do so. Don't sign up, and spend your money on, EHARMONY unless God directs you to do so. Wait for the Lord, trust in Him, and He will do what is best. Am I saying sit back and do nothing? NO! If you have a chance to go out with someone take it. If you see someone you are interested in seek to meet them. But don't get into such a hurry that you do things without FIRST getting permission from the Lord. If you seek Him first, if you desire the Lord first, if you put His plan first, you will not be sad you did. I think part of the problem many Christian singles have today is that they are not trusting the Lord. They are trying to "work things out" themselves. That will not work, they will fail, and they will be angry. Sadly Maken is only helping them in that.

Maken is a false teacher, make no mistake about it. Much of her advice is carnal/fleshly and will do more damage than good.

I could say "MUCH" more, and I am sure I will at a later date, but for now I pray that everyone will take a deep breath and look at the Scriptures I pointed out. Stop trying to read into them what you want (hope) them to say. Let the Scriptures determine your world view instead of Debbie Maken, Al Mohler, the Republican Party, or any social concern.

2/17/07, 3:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The same cannot be said for men. Asking the wrong women out can get a man labeled as a "creep" or a "stalker." Even worse, a man can find himself the target of a frivolous lawsuit or disciplinary action at work. Women have treated men shabbily in this regard. In days gone by, a rejection was nothing more than that--a rejection. Now, a man is forced to navigate an emotional and legal landmine to gain a woman's acceptance, thanks in no small part to feminism and misplaced chivalry. Too many women have been weaned on a diet of misandry, victimhood, hostility, and paranoia. Even their body language betrays a confrontational attitude. Who wants to get up the nerve to ask these kind of women out? Let's face it: Dating is not fun for many men. The whole experience is filled with angst because there is always the fear that a man's advances will be taken the wrong way. From undue public embarrassment to shattered careers, many men are coming to the conclusion that the drama of approaching a woman is not worth it."

Well said, Anakin. In fact, let me add that I know men who've faced the threat of church discipline for asking out the wrong woman, even if they've acted in a courteous and reasonable manner.

I certianly don't want to return to an era of male chauvinism, but until such time as both the church and Western culture rid themselves of the misandry which plagues them, men will find it difficult at best to date and eventually marry.

2/17/07, 4:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What if, and I know Maken does not believe this idea, that man was who God wanted this women to marry? Because of Maken's false teachings this woman may very well have just missed out on God's best for her life."

This reminded me of something. My aunt was very unhappily married for many years until her husband passed. Back when she was 19, she met the perfect guy for her -in church! She said everything about him felt right. This guy was the love of her life. Except...he was short, about a foot shorter than her.

Out of pride, she broke things off and married a taller man who didn't have any beliefs at all. She was horribly unhappy for the life of that marriage.

I think there are times when maybe a potential mate doesn't seem perfect in appearance or life situation, but our conscience is moved by God to KNOW that the person is right for us. Whether they are a certain height or weight, are rich or not-so-rich, is less important than if we know the person is right for us.

One thing that troubled me about the Maken book was the lack of weight put on real romance. What about people moving together naturally -and at the right time? The process of falling in love is a powerful spiritual experience. If one has any doubts about our reality as living spirits created by a spiritual God, those doubts disappear quickly when one is in rapturous romantic love.

As I read a borrowed copy of Maken's book, I didn't have the sense she was intentionally doing wrong. I just felt a certain sadness. The woman just doesn't get it. Romantic love isn't about encouraging leadership, shaming, schedules or "getting serious". In Maken, I don't see someone who understands love and marriage beyond the mechanics and legalisms.

I was dating a woman who lost patience with my approach to a relationship and simply broke off contact. No big loss I suppose, but we were slowly getting closer and closer. I wonder how many women will take Maken's advice and try to force a relationship or rush a man to the altar. Lots of women won't be rushed when they are young. Why should men be rushed into marriage simply because women are older?

2/17/07, 8:22 PM  
Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...



"As I read a borrowed copy of Maken's book, I didn't have the sense she was intentionally doing wrong. I just felt a certain sadness. The woman just doesn't get it. Romantic love isn't about encouraging leadership, shaming, schedules or "getting serious". In Maken, I don't see someone who understands love and marriage beyond the mechanics and legalisms.



Good point, Anon*. I suspect our grandparents and great-grandparents did not think, "We have a mandate to fufill." No, they probably thought, "I like her/him. Let's get married!"


*I wish my readers would use the "Other" option more often for "Choose an Indentity", if not a Google/Blogger account, and at least come up with a internet name. All these anonymous postings can get confusing. ;)

2/17/07, 10:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That is a good idea, Anakin. You quoted my post and I do enjoy the discussions here, so I'm going to put my name down from now on.

2/18/07, 4:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin said:

"Don't change churches in a desperate search for a husband/wife unless God first directs you to do so. Don't sign up, and spend your money on EHARMONY unless God directs you to do so. Wait for the Lord, trust in Him, and He will do what is best. Am I saying sit back and do nothing? NO! If you have a chance to go out with someone take it. If you see someone you are interested in seek to meet them. But don't get into such a hurry that you do things without FIRST getting permission from the Lord."

I'm sorry, but this "getting permission from the Lord" thing is nonsense, especially when applied to mating and marriage. The Bible says "be fruitful and multiply", and even if you don't take that as a command, it is at the very least permission enough. What the Bible NEVER says is that you have to wait for direction or "permission from God" to seek marriage. Back in biblical times, if you were of age and wanted a wife, you simply went out and got one, like you got a job or a home. I know things have changed, but they haven't changed that much, as if we need some new-fangled way to divine "God's personal plan" for you. Gimme a break!

2/18/07, 1:33 PM  
Blogger Jake said...

Ah, Lynn Burrows, she of the triple exclamation point.

Come to think of it, maybe Debbie Maken's book wouldn't be half as bad if she had called it Getting Serious About Getting Married!!!

;)

2/18/07, 8:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like the Lynn Burrows article. She makes the point that an ideal man doesn't suddenly "appear", and that a little effort on a woman's part can change the hopelessness of her situation.

Still, there are a vast number of single Christian women who are holding out for "the whole package" - meaning a very devout Christian man with no baggage, a high salary, good looks, etc.

At my church there are a lot of women aged 30-45 who are seriously obese; good Christians but seriously obese and looking for basically a Brad Pitt type who is also a strong Christian - but of course who earns a good salary.

I think it doesn't matter how much faith these women have that Mr. Wonderful will suddenly appear. If one's expectations are unrealistic, it isn't the fault of men.

2/19/07, 3:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'm sorry, but this "getting permission from the Lord" thing is nonsense, especially when applied to mating and marriage."

==That is a shocking statement. There is zero Scriptural grounds for a believer doing ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING, apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit. What did Jesus Himself say? "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (Jn 15:5). What did He say? Apart from the Lord we, believers, can do NOTHING. What does nothing mean? It means nothing. A believer will not marry the right person if they have left the Lord out of their decision. Look at what happened to Abraham when he decided he could do things his own way (Gen 16:1-2). We are still paying for his dreadful mistake today. Yet according to people like Maken, if they were alive then, they would have said he did the right thing. Yet he did the wrong thing. Why? Because he acted apart from the Lord. He did it himself and the natural result was that he messed everything up.

If you think getting permission from the Lord, waiting on the Lord's leading, is "nonsense" then you are truly in a very dangerous place. You need to repent and seek the Lord on this matter.

_________________________

"The Bible says "be fruitful and multiply", and even if you don't take that as a command, it is at the very least permission enough."

==That is not a command to every human being. After all Jesus nor Paul, among others, had no children. If that was a command they would have sinned. Yet we know they did not sin because (a) Jesus never sinned (Heb 4:15) and (b) Scripture never condemns anyone for not getting married or not having children.

As far as Genesis 1:27-28 (etc) being permission enough for everyone, well again I point you to Abraham. The plan Sarai cooked up with Hagar made perfect sense. In fact she could have defended her plan by using your logic and applying it to Genesis 1:27-28. What was the result of Abraham listening to his wife's logic instead of waiting upon the Lord? A family divided, a child he had to let go, and war. Abraham would have been better often waiting upon the Lord and only doing what the Lord directed (gave him permission) to do. The same is true for us today. If we move before God says "move" then we are on our own. We can't move ahead of God, or get out of His will, and expect Him to bless us. In everything we must look to the Lord for His leading. Mainly in an area as important as marriage.

________________________

"What the Bible NEVER says is that you have to wait for direction or "permission from God" to seek marriage."

==Actually you are wrong. The Bible never, and I mean never, gives believers permission to do anything apart from the Holy Spirit. You rush ahead and get married apart from God's leading and you are probably heading for disaster.

_________________________

"Back in biblical times, if you were of age and wanted a wife, you simply went out and got one, like you got a job or a home."

==Actually alot of their marriages were pre-arranged by their parents. If not there was a system where the man got a wife by paying the father of the bride. I doubt you really want to go back to that system. Alot of times the woman did not even know the guy she was marrying (even on the wedding night).

______________________

"I know things have changed, but they haven't changed that much, as if we need some new-fangled way to divine "God's personal plan" for you. Gimme a break!"

==If you think waiting on the Lord and seeking His will is "new-fangled" (etc) then you are spiritually in a very dangerous place.

2/19/07, 5:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"there are a vast number of single Christian women who are holding out for "the whole package" - meaning a very devout Christian man with no baggage, a high salary, good looks, etc."

==That is why many of these women will probably never get married or at least will not marry a believer in the Lord (1Cor 1:26-31). A believer's attitude towards marriage should be Scriptures attitude. Marriage is holy. Looking for someone to marry using the standards you mentioned above is not Scriptural nor safe. I am not saying "looks", status, etc, are not important. They "ARE" part of the picture. However if those are the most important things, well, a person is already heading in the wrong direction.

_____________________

"At my church there are a lot of women aged 30-45 who are seriously obese; good Christians but seriously obese and looking for basically a Brad Pitt type who is also a strong Christian - but of course who earns a good salary."

==That is sad, really. They are almost destined to live a lonely life. They should be looking for the "right" person. If he is "right" for them, that is if they have followed the Lord in this, then the physical attraction (etc) will follow.

_______________________

"I think it doesn't matter how much faith these women have that Mr. Wonderful will suddenly appear. If one's expectations are unrealistic, it isn't the fault of men."

==I think singles need to get their minds off of what they "don't" have. We need to make the Lord first in our lives and trust him to lead us to the right man or woman. Some will say that is "silly" however there is nothing silly about it.

2/19/07, 5:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I think what you're stating is closer (maybe not entirely) to what Lynn Burrows writes, no?"

==I quickly scanned her article. Most of what she says is good and applies to both single men and women. The fact is there is not someone for everyone. God does lead some people to remain single. If there was someone for everyone then there would be equal numbers of men and women and each would be paired off.

I did find it interesting that she claims that "in the average church, you will find approximately seven to ten women for every man". I am not sure that is really true. As I stated above I am not totally ready to buy into this idea that there is a shortage of single Christian men in the church. In my church, personally, there is a shortage of singles, period. I am 32 and there are no, and I mean no, single women my age in my church. In fact the one nearest to my age is in her 40s. There are no single men in my church around my age either. There is me and one other guy who is divorced with children. So even if single women were flocking to my church they would only have two choices. The last church I attended was very large (over 1,500+ members). Even there the number of single guys was very, very high. Most of them, to be honest, refused to attend any singles events (etc). Maybe that is why single christian women, who are attending singles events, think there are few single christian men in the church? They are looking in the singles groups and the guys simply are not going there. Why not? I suspect the idea is a bit on the weird side. If they go they know people will think they are going looking for a wife. Whether they are, or are not, that is a bit strange. So most will stay away.

If single Christian women want to meet single Christian men in the church I advise them to do what several women have done to me (do only with the Lord's guidance). Sit beside them in church and, if your church still uses hymn books, ask to share one (etc). Either way they can sit beside them, introduce themselves, and start a conversation. That approach may be a bit too bold for some but, I assure you, it get's the guys attention. Or they could let their friends and family know they are looking. Often times they will know someone. Christian women need to stop sitting around waiting on Mr Right to knock on their door. Because, most likely, that will never happen.

The above "steps" should only be done of course after a believer has sought the Lord's guidance. Don't just rush after someone because you think he/she is the right one. Seek the Lord's guidance. In fact don't do anything at all until you have sought the Lord's guidance. If the Lord leads you to be aggressive in "the search" (ie..above examples) then by all means go for it. However if the Lord tells you to wait, to slow down, or even to stop looking, obey that as well. Why? The Lord knows what is best. On this read my post above dated 3:01 PM, it is reply to some statements Maken made.

2/19/07, 6:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am with foster,

NO FAT CHICKS!!!


GH

2/19/07, 8:42 AM  
Blogger Jake said...

I'm with GH and foster. While it might sound mean to criticize women's appearances, even the Makenites concede there has to be some attraction. I'm always saying that, at my church, which is by no means a small church, of all the unmarried women who are 1) the same age as or younger than I, and 2) out of college, there is only one whom I find at all physically appealing, and that's my ex-girlfriend who declined my marriage offer. The rest, of which there aren't that many, are either overweight or just plain, well, ugly. All the other attractive ones are married already.

I'm really wondering where all these gorgeous single Christian women, whom Debbie Maken and Al Mohler and Elisabeth Elliott are always saying are so numerous and are desperate for marriage but aren't getting asked out, are.

2/19/07, 9:58 AM  
Blogger Jake said...

KnightWatch,

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that I can't expect anything different. I've often thought that if I could go back in time, I'd go to a Christian college and find a wife while there. What I'm protesting is the Makenites' constant, and apparently false, claim that churches are filled with beautiful single Christian women desperate for marriage, just yearning for any Christian man to pursue them. That there are some unmarried women desperate for marriage, I don't doubt. But that they are numerous and beautiful is something I have not observed.

2/19/07, 11:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'm really wondering where all these gorgeous single Christian women, whom Debbie Maken and Al Mohler and Elisabeth Elliott are always saying are so numerous and are desperate for marriage but aren't getting asked out, are. "

Jake

I used to wonder the same thing as you Jake. I was raised in the US Midwest and we had a severe shortage of cute, thin, non-psycho Christian girls.

THEN

I spent some time in the South (Mississippi, Georgia and Memphis) and I can gurantee you that the South is filled with HOT, thin, Christian girls that no one asks out. Seems to me that Southern men are either fools or ignorant about how good they have it.

Either way, visit any church in the south and this will hold true.

By the way, I married a woman from the South.

GH

"No Fat Chick!!!"

2/19/07, 12:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

When Jesus said "apart from me you can do nothing" in John 15, he was speaking in the context of abiding in him and his words, particularly in terms of obedience to what he taught. Abraham was not obedient when he committed adultery with Hagar-- there's your trouble. Maken certainly wouldn't advocate adultery under any circumstance.

Being "led by the spirit" doesn't necessarily mean being God's remote control robot that has to pray and get an answer before making any decision, big or small-- although, of course it is good to pray, and with listening hearts. Although consider the fact that when you marry, you marry a fellow sinner like yourself. I think it's hard for Christians to fathom God telling them to marry your average Christian, warts and all. And maybe He doesn't-- usually. Consider also that in 1 Cor 7:36, if a man marries, "he should do as he wishes, he does not sin", likewise he offers a similar liberty to widows in verse 39.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that scriptural wisdom equips us to get on with living our lives in obedience. Devotional notes by Selwyn Hughes offers the following observations from Exodus:
"Did you know that once God rebuked Moses for praying? 'Then the Lord said to Moses, "Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on."' (Exodus 14:15-16) Moses had already prayed -- now came the time for action."

Nowhere in the new testament is anyone admonished to beware of the "good choice", lest you miss "the God choice", as far as marriage is concerned. Early Christians knew that life was short and we can't afford to be so ponderous about the matter of marriage. Now we have people waiting half their lives for "God's best". Do you really think that it's God's will that record numbers of his people are failing to marry in time to have children? Or do you think that something else might be at work here, something that has to do with sin? You may not be aware of the shortage of young men in the church in your neck of the woods, but the rest of us are, and it's going to take a lot more than a few "handy hints" for those single women, since they really are in surplus. Check out: churchformen.com.

2/19/07, 12:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

KnightWatch said...
Arrive late at the party -- don't be surprised to find the punch bowl empty.

==I agree. However Maken, and others like her, keep talking about all these beautiful single Christian women out there who are just dying to get married. I don't see that to be true. In fact I somewhat reject the "there are few single Christian men" argument that many women make. There are plenty single Christian men out there. That is why it is hard for some single Christian men to meet single Christian women. All the beautiful single Christian women have boyfriends (however since they are not married they are still single). The number of beautiful single Christian women in the church is simply not that high. So while single women may just "outnumber" single men in the church it is not by seven to one or any large number like that nor are most of these women physically what most guys are looking for.

Let me add, very quickly, that I don't believe physical appearance should be that important. Certainly there has to be some level of physical attraction for a marriage to work (etc) but physical attraction should not be the all and all. I could marry a woman who many would not consider beautiful. As long as I felt she is beautiful, inside as well as outside, I don't care if she is not "hot". However I could never date, much less marry, a woman who is very overweight (sweet as many of them are).


Anonymous (GH) said...
I spent some time in the South (Mississippi, Georgia and Memphis) and I can gurantee you that the South is filled with HOT, thin, Christian girls that no one asks out. Seems to me that Southern men are either fools or ignorant about how good they have it.

==I live in the south, and near the beach, and I have certainly not seen this to be true. Maybe it is in certain locations but it is not accross the board.

2/19/07, 1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"Nowhere in the new testament is anyone admonished to beware of the "good choice", lest you miss "the God choice", as far as marriage is concerned."

==The New Testament does talk about trusting in the Lord for everything. I think marriage/dating falls into the everything category. I would add that the New Testament never condemns anyone for not getting married.


________________

"Early Christians knew that life was short and we can't afford to be so ponderous about the matter of marriage."

==And? We can't live our life by the "standard" set by early Christians. Our standard must be Scripture and it never condemns someone for not getting married or delaying marriage. In fact, in 1Cor 7, the opposite is true.

______________________

"Now we have people waiting half their lives for "God's best". Do you really think that it's God's will that record numbers of his people are failing to marry in time to have children?"

==That is, to be honest, a oversimplification of the issue. I assume you are talking about people in the church? Well let's keep in mind that many people on church roles are not saved. They are lost. That is why they are happy living in fornication and lust and therefore not in a rush to marry. However true believers in Christ do not do (practice) those things (1Jn 3:9-10). That is why the majority of believers, even today, get married.

Is God upset with the number of Christian singles? I see no Biblical reason to think the answer is yes. Most of the concerns people like Albert Mohler make are sociological and not Biblical. I personally think that Scripture teaches that singles are good for the church (1Cor 7:32-38). So no, I don't think God is angered by the number of single Christians.

_______________________

"Or do you think that something else might be at work here, something that has to do with sin?"

==In the case of many lost people in the church the answer, of course, is yes. They are fornicating, lusting, and living in sin in general. However when it comes to true followers of Christ I think the answer is no.

As I said above I think your statement(s) reflect a oversimplification of the issue. Why are there large numbers of Christian singles today? I can come up with several reasons that have nothing to do with sin.

1. It is harder to meet people today than it has been at different points in history.

2. People are generally more private today. Therefore they are not likely to engage in matchmaking (etc).

3. Many people delay marriage until they are better prepared for marriage (ie...graduate/doctoral degrees, career, etc). Contrary to what some have said, this is not a sin.

4. Some today believe it is better to marry later.

5. Some who just simply don't want to get married are no longer being pressured into marriage. Again I am talking about Christians and not lost people who pretend to be Christians.

6. I don't know if the number of "shy" people has risen but it seems that there are more today. If it has risen I don't know what sociological factors could be causing it. Either way shy people have a hard time meeting people. Because of reasons 1 & 2 they rarely get the help they may need meeting people.

______________________

"You may not be aware of the shortage of young men in the church in your neck of the woods, but the rest of us are, and it's going to take a lot more than a few "handy hints" for those single women, since they really are in surplus."

==I am sorry but I reject that whole idea. The large church I attended was in a very large city and I was a member there for over four years. Some single women may "think" there are not many single Christian men in the church but that is simply because (a)they are not looking that hard, (b)they have a very narrow focus, or (c)it maybe true in their church. However it is not true across the board. Some single Christian men would argue that there are few nice looking, single, Christian women in the church. As I stated in a post a few minutes ago, I would not disagree with that.

___________________

"I guess the point I'm trying to make is that scriptural wisdom equips us to get on with living our lives in obedience. Devotional notes by Selwyn Hughes offers the following observations from Exodus"

==Since I don't have access to that devotional I cannot comment on that. However if God commands someone to do something they have no excuse for waiting. God never commands every person to get married. Thus I don't see how your example even applies.

_________________________


"Being "led by the spirit" doesn't necessarily mean being God's remote control robot that has to pray and get an answer before making any decision, big or small-- although, of course it is good to pray, and with listening hearts."

==The Bible promises God's blessing on those who seek Him and wait for Him (to help, answer, etc). The very idea that God does not want us to seek His guidance in an area as important as marriage is in my opinion very unBiblical. I do believe, btw, that we should pray before we make any decision (big or small). That I believe is a Biblical position.

_________________________

"Although consider the fact that when you marry, you marry a fellow sinner like yourself. I think it's hard for Christians to fathom God telling them to marry your average Christian, warts and all."

==I am not sure what that has to do with this. If God leads you to marry someone common sense, and Biblical sense, tells you that they are not going to be perfect (sinless).

________________________

"And maybe He doesn't-- usually. Consider also that in 1 Cor 7:36, if a man marries, "he should do as he wishes, he does not sin", likewise he offers a similar liberty to widows in verse 39."

==So you believe Paul is telling them to marry without asking God, their Father, about it first? I certainly hope that is not what you are saying. What Paul is saying is, actually, the opposite from Debbie Maken. He is saying that God does not demand that people remain single or that they marry. That is a decision each person must make. Of course, with Paul, it goes without saying that such a decision would be prayed over (Phil 4:6-7).

__________________________

"When Jesus said "apart from me you can do nothing" in John 15, he was speaking in the context of abiding in him and his words, particularly in terms of obedience to what he taught."

==My point exactly. We need to seek God's guidance so we can obey Him. How do we seek His guidance? Through His Word and through Prayer. Since God never contradicts Himself the two, at the end of the day, will agree. God will never tell me anything in prayer that contradicts His Word. That is why both have to go hand in hand. It is through this method that we learn about God's general "will" and what God desires for us personally.

___________________

"Abraham was not obedient when he committed adultery with Hagar-- there's your trouble. Maken certainly wouldn't advocate adultery under any circumstance."

==I know. My point was that Abraham tried to solve his "problem" his way instead of God's way. Doing that always causes problems and sometimes it leads us into sin.

2/19/07, 1:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

If you mean Florida, It is NOT part of the South that I am talking about.

GH

2/19/07, 2:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you mean Florida, It is NOT part of the South that I am talking about.

==Not Florida.

2/19/07, 2:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin said:

1. It is harder to meet people today than it has been at different points in history.

2. People are generally more private today. Therefore they are not likely to engage in matchmaking (etc).

3. Many people delay marriage until they are better prepared for marriage (ie...graduate/doctoral degrees, career, etc). Contrary to what some have said, this is not a sin.


This is the heart of what is going on in the dating scene today. I've met so many women (in person and online) who have done the career path + education and travel. They wake up at age 39 in a blind panic.

I know it will seem insane to think this, but what was so wrong with only men working, couples marrying young and having babies early?

Cultural feminism is an entrenched part of the lives of religious women. That is why Maken's book is so offensive. Women are free to spend their most fertile years in law school, traveling and "finding themselves"??? Then they turn on the few men left in hyper-feminine churches and shame them right out of the pews?!?

The Maken Virus has spread. I find it more difficult to make a connection with Christian women all the time. I'm over 40, but well-off and considered attractive with no baggage. I find it easy to fall into relationships with secular and Jewish women who have none of the hangups that Christian women have.

No waiting for many years to "learn" how to be married a la Carolyn McCulley.

No being shamed and attacked a la Debbie Maken.

Just good times and natural emotional connections with honest women.

The Christian dating scene has gone horribly wrong. Matchmaking won't help, nor will shame or anger.

2/19/07, 4:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is God upset with the number of Christian singles? I see no Biblical reason to think the answer is yes. Most of the concerns people like Albert Mohler make are sociological and not Biblical. I personally think that Scripture teaches that singles are good for the church (1Cor 7:32-38).

Speaking of oversimplification!! First of all, that passage was written at a time of "present distress" (verse 26), and remaining unmarried for the sake of the early church has nothing to do with today's trend of singles just wanting to do their own thing. And don't you think that some of the reasons you listed "that have nothing to do with sin" are at least predicated in part by sin, if not by each single individual, at least in the corporate sense?

If you don't think our current levels of singleness in the church aren't a problem, then at what point does it become a problem? And to think that somehow "true believers" are not affected by this!!

Don't you realize that it's the most devout women who are the ones left in surplus-- mostly because the draw of greater sexual opportunity in the secular world contributes to men raised in the church not sticking around! And don't tell me the chaste women are in short supply or that they're too prudish or picky. As you put it: these women just aren't "physically what most guys are looking for". And that's why you can't see the projected shortage of church-going husbands noted by churchformen.com and Christianity Today-- because you're starting with your own exacting standards, having eliminated most of the female church body, because we're all fat, right? Sorry, Christian men are just as fat, if not fatter, according to Todd Hertz at CT.

As for this whole "wait for permission from God to marry" thing, how convenient! It sounds like you've got an awful lot of faith in your own conscience and ability to interpret scripture. Doesn't accountability to elders and the larger fellowship factor in somewhere?

2/19/07, 7:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Don't you realize that it's the most devout women who are the ones left in surplus-- mostly because the draw of greater sexual opportunity in the secular world contributes to men raised in the church not sticking around! And don't tell me the chaste women are in short supply or that they're too prudish or picky."

I'm sorry, but this is wrong and doesn't reflect the experience of Christian men I know.

There is a distinction to be made here. Many devout women are so vested in religiosity, that they do not see that they have become pious church ladies. They cease to become romantic and physical human beings and become almost like nuns. Carolyn McCulley is a perfect example. What kind of woman makes it clear that she will not date without many conditions being met? What kind of woman feels the need to study marriage; to learn how to be a wife over many decades of observing married women?

Sorry, but many of the devout Christian women I met were following the McCulley plan for permanent solitude. They were pleasant to be around, but I couldn't imagine dating them.

As I've said before, my very Christian girlfriend decided to simply stop speaking to me as I wouldn't follow the Maken plan. In my professional duties, I've run into secular and Jewish women who are ready to tear my clothes off. Which women will reach my heart? Which will trigger my sex drive? Which women will win my heart with a romantic nature and strong female drives?

Not the prudish Maken/McCulley types.

Men aren't immune to romantic love. I felt a strong attraction to my last Christian girlfriend. Our beliefs, our goals for the future - even our sense of humor was the same. We could have been a perfect match. We both shared very private feelings and personal details. She walked away because I wouldn't commit in the Maken 3-month window. Still, I'm not shedding any tears now that her guide is Debbie Maken and not her own heart.

I honestly feel that a lot of long-time Christian single women are part of an informal cult of pious Christian singleness. They are far too good for ordinary Christian men - yet attack with shame the few men left in the church. Maken teaches them to double-up the shame and throw in some hurtful insults.

The "chaste" women of the church ARE too prudish and picky. Go ahead ladies, guard your virtue until there is no chance any man would want you. I meet lots of women who are turning 40 and desperately want some perfect man. I've even had women tell me I'm 90% of what they want, but they don't want to compromise - even if it means never marrying.

I don't want to be alone forever, so I'm not going to date the hundreds of thousands of single women in the Christian church. I simply cannot meet their expectations and demands. I know my ex-girlfriend reads this blog, so now she knows how I feel. I won't marry a woman if she feels Maken's opinion is more important than how we feel about each other.

We did have some serious chemistry; a closeness that is rare in this world. After reading Maken's book, it all seemed to go away.

I can live with disappointment and move on. I just hope Maken's book doesn't break up more relationships and saddle women with expectations that keep them single.

2/19/07, 8:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"First of all, that passage was written at a time of "present distress" (verse 26)"

"It sounds like you've got an awful lot of faith in your own conscience and ability to interpret scripture."

Anonymous,

Let me just say how sick I am of hearing 1 Cor 7 dismissed as irrelevant to today's world by the abuse of the present distress passage. For a bunch of people who seem to find commands to marry in almost every passage of scripture that even remotely mentions anything to do with marriage no matter how indirect, it's amamzing to me how a passage that speaks clearly and positively about the single state is so easily and hand-wavingly dismissed based on a single phrase.

Also, if you'd done your homework, you'd know that many commentators and biblical scolars do not think the "present distress" is limited only to that time and place, but speaks of the general state of the world and the situation faced by the church in every age.

So, no, I don't necessarily have a lot of faith in my own conscience and ability to interpret scripture, I have faith in the Christian community to which I belong, to its leaders who know and love me, to the broad history of the Christian church from the time of the apostles until now (not just from the time of Calvin and Luther until now), and in those who have studied hard and done the hard work of trying to understand and correctly interpret what scripture says.

There is nothing worse than being given lectures in biblical interpretation by someone who clearly isn't that knowledgable about the subject and who is clearly driven by an agenda.

2/20/07, 3:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1Cor 7:32-38
Anonymous said...
Speaking of oversimplification!! First of all, that passage was written at a time of "present distress" (verse 26), and remaining unmarried for the sake of the early church has nothing to do with today's trend of singles just wanting to do their own thing.[/quote]

==Well, first, 1Cor 7:32-35 has nothing to do with the "present distress". That was verses 25-31. In verses 32ff Paul is giving a general principle. Btw I understand the present distress in verse 26 as the end times (vss29,31) as do many other scholars.

Second I know very few "christian" single who are single just so they can have fun. In fact the single life can be just as tough as married life. The bills don't go away simply because one is not married. Neither do health issues as we age (etc).

_________________________

"And don't you think that some of the reasons you listed "that have nothing to do with sin" are at least predicated in part by sin, if not by each single individual, at least in the corporate sense?[/quote]

==Not directly, no. Most of those reasons are just the results of our modern society. Whether that is good or bad is a different issue but it is not sin.

______________________

"If you don't think our current levels of singleness in the church aren't a problem, then at what point does it become a problem? And to think that somehow "true believers" are not affected by this!![/quote]

==Why is it a problem? Biblically I see NO problem with it at all. Period. You have yet to provide a solid Biblical reason why it is a problem. I can understand the sociological arguments (etc) but those are not Biblical. As far as most true Christians well, as I said, the vast majority still marry.

________________

"Don't you realize that it's the most devout women who are the ones left in surplus-- mostly because the draw of greater sexual opportunity in the secular world contributes to men raised in the church not sticking around!"

==That is simply not true in most, or all, circles.

________________

"And don't tell me the chaste women are in short supply or that they're too prudish or picky. As you put it: these women just aren't "physically what most guys are looking for"."

==Physical appearance is important, just as career, and goals are important. It is all part of the larger picture. You can't fault someone (male or female) for saying that they are not willing to marry someone they are simply not attracted to. Now, as I have said, physical appearance should not be the most important issue. However it is an issue. If a woman does not take care of how she looks, she can expect to remain single. The same is true for guys.

_____________________

"And that's why you can't see the projected shortage of church-going husbands noted by churchformen.com and Christianity Today-- because you're starting with your own exacting standards"

==Actually I am just looking around. You ignore that my observations are based on what I have "seen" with my own two eyes. Those observations may not be true in every place but they are true observations of my general geographical area.

I also find it interesting how Maken, and others, demand that females have high standards in choosing a husband (etc). Yet if a man expresses high standards they are condemned. Seems like there is a double standard here. I am not just refering to your comments but I am also refering to other comments I have heard/read.

________________

"having eliminated most of the female church body, because we're all fat, right?"

==Did I say that? No. Let's try to have a serious discussion without the strawmen, ok?

___________________

"As for this whole "wait for permission from God to marry" thing, how convenient! It sounds like you've got an awful lot of faith in your own conscience and ability to interpret scripture."

==So you discount the idea that God has a personal plan for each Christian's life? You don't believe that God leads His people on an individual level?

Please answer that question directly.

___________________

"Doesn't accountability to elders and the larger fellowship factor in somewhere?"

==Of course but what has that got to do with this issue?

2/20/07, 6:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First of all, "the present distress" is NOT widely accepted by scholars to mean end times and nothing else. The debate between "end times" vs. "imminent persecution" has gone on for years, lest anyone fail to "do their homework". You cannot just snatch a verse out of its context, assuming the verses before and after it have no relevance. Besides, are you single so you can "care for the things of the Lord"? If not, don't even bother citing verses 32-35.

In this regard, Martin, it's astounding how you can make all kinds of social observations about there being "very few solid Christian women" (because being a single guy, you'd know, right??) and just dismiss as "sociological, but not biblical" the numerically based concerns of people like Al Mohler. Please don't beat your chest about your view being "biblical", since you're definitely done a bit of social analysis here yourself.

"'And don't you think that some of the reasons you listed "that have nothing to do with sin" are at least predicated in part by sin, if not by each single individual, at least in the corporate sense?==Not directly, no. Most of those reasons are just the results of our modern society."

Right. Because there's nothing sinful about modern society, is there? Simple, simple, simple.

"I also find it interesting how Maken, and others, demand that females have high standards in choosing a husband (etc). Yet if a man expresses high standards they are condemned. Seems like there is a double standard here." What standards are you comparing? Most of what you've written on men's standards seems to be about looks (despite your claims that it isn't the most important thing), Maken never even mentions looks, so I don't see where you're perceiving a double standard. Although I would agree that people of both sexes have First of all, "the present distress" is NOT widely accepted by scholars to mean end times and nothing else. The debate between "end times" vs. "imminent persecution" has gone on for years, lest anyone fail to "do their homework". You cannot just snatch a verse out of its context, assuming the verses before and after it have no relevance. Besides, are you single so you can "care for the things of the Lord"? If not, don't even bother citing verses 32-35.

In this regard, Martin, it's astounding how you can make all kinds of social observations about there being "very few solid Christian women" (because being a single guy, you'd know, right??) and just dismiss as "sociological, but not biblical" the numerically based concerns of people like Al Mohler. Please don't beat your chest about your view being "biblical", since you're definitely done a bit of social analysis here yourself.

"'And don't you think that some of the reasons you listed "that have nothing to do with sin" are at least predicated in part by sin, if not by each single individual, at least in the corporate sense?==Not directly, no. Most of those reasons are just the results of our modern society."

Right. Because there's nothing sinful in modern society, is there?

"I also find it interesting how Maken, and others, demand that females have high standards in choosing a husband (etc). Yet if a man expresses high standards they are condemned. Seems like there is a double standard here."

What standards are you comparing? Most of what you've written on men's standards seems to be about looks, Maken never even mentions looks, so I don't see how you can perceive there being some kind of double standard. Although I would agree that physical appearance is important for both sexes, it's ridiculously grandiose to suggest that there aren't enough attractive-enough single women in the church for the single guys there. This is no straw man-- this is what you said, despite citations being given that refute this claim-- and all you can say is "you're wrong! you're wrong!"

"So you discount the idea that God has a personal plan for each Christian's life? You don't believe that God leads His people on an individual level?"

I believe that God works in our lives, but HE IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN, which refutes the idea that he plans out our sins. The outcome of people's actions in their lives, I think, are a blend of their own efforts under free will (some more or less sinful than others) and God's intervention. We don't always know where one ends and the other begins. Even though everything happens under God's sovereignty and his plans are not frustrated by human sin, we need to respect the inscutiable nature of God and resist declaring everything that happens as "His will" or plan-- it's simply not our place to do so.

As for accountability, I'm not advocating that we go around asking single men what kinds of eunuchs they are, and insisting that they are "commanded" to marry. But I do think Maken has a point when she says that there is no biblical basis for today's kind of singleness, and that calling it a gift has given it "hands off" status, as if no one should ever question whether or not our current trends of protracted singleness. At no time in history were single people, particularly single men, given a "right" to stay that way for long without any inquiry from their families and from the community at large.

So the jig is up, and look at what a fuss you guys are making! I think the reason so many of the guys on this site like to point at the "shrill" feminists is because they reminder them of themselves.

2/20/07, 12:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"So the jig is up, and look at what a fuss you guys are making! I think the reason so many of the guys on this site like to point at the "shrill" feminists is because they reminder them of themselves."

Are you not aware of close to 30 years of social engineering in the West? Aren't men AND women both working as only men used to? I've talked with plenty of Christian women who didn't marry young because school or career was so desperately important.

There are some very devout men who do not marry because they ARE singularly focused on God. It is a fact. Many more men don't earn enough to support a family. They once did, but the economy is different now. Women now have all the economic power of men plus all the control in family law matters.

It's a bit tiresome to hear women complaining when they are also putting off marriage until their 30s and 40s. If family life is much more expensive these days, and everyone has to work, holding off on marriage and children is simply logical for a lot more men and women.

Marriage is an institution created by God, but I do not buy the argument that it is commanded by God. I don't see that particular imperative in scripture.

Are you suggesting that men should have to answer for being single for any length of time? If so, shouldn't women have to answer for putting education, career and social lives ahead of marriage? After all, women are the most fertile at the time they are now spending years in college or working. If they hold off on marriage and ignore fertility issues because other concerns are more important, why should men be blamed?

I've had conversations with single, childless Christian women who become angry when I say I'm not ready for quick marriage and immediate pregnancy.

I know it is politically incorrect to say this, but none of us would be having this conversation if 100% of women didn't feel compelled to spend their most fertile years in college or working.

The main cause of widespread singleness for Christian women and women in general is the reality that they have chosen the life of men. Many more women hold off on marriage. They work for many years but never invest time in finding a husband or wanting to be a housewife.

Men aren't guilty of anything. They are simply trying to get by in a world where the labor force is now double the size it should be, there are fewer marriageable women, and the women who do want marriage want a wealthy husband and want to have only one baby at age 39.

Women did this, not men. If men cannot explain how they feel about their situation without condemnation, they can surely live alone and work on being a good Christian. It is a viable option.

2/20/07, 3:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First of all, the women of your generation did not invent feminism-- they inherited it.


You cannot point to the economy and complain that things have changed and that today's single men can't make enough to support a family without also respecting the fact that things have also changed for women in terms of what they must or cannot do--the former being work, the latter being no longer able to live off their parents until they marry. Two incomes are almost always necessary nowadays for families to own a home. And how are post-baby boom single Christian women to blame for that?

"There are some very devout men who do not marry because they ARE singularly focused on God. It is a fact." Right, they're called monks. Please, the vast majority of single Christian men hardly fall into this category.

2/20/07, 5:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 5:29,

Little gurl, are you upset 'cuz you can't get a date?

2/20/07, 5:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There ARE a few men who aren't monks, but are setting aside some solo time to study and focus on a closer relationship with God. I don't think it is appropriate to go after these guys because they are happy as singles for a time.

As for me, I'm continuing to search for a 40 year old, never married, very difficult woman. Where, oh where can she be?

2/20/07, 7:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Foster 3:29 PM said...

"Marriage is an institution created by God,"

But it's now owned and controlled by the state in the west. I would also go so far as to say that marriage is now defined by the divorce and family law courts (which have proved to be overwhelmingly anti-male).

"I know it is politically incorrect to say this, but none of us would be having this conversation if 100% of women didn't feel compelled to spend their most fertile years in college or working."

Politically incorrect to some but there's no arguing with the logic. Nice post.

2/21/07, 4:03 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon 12:58 wrote:
--------------------------
At no time in history were single people, particularly single men, given a "right" to stay that way for long without any inquiry from their families and from the community at large.
---------------------------
And your point? Sorry, I have no obligation to ask permission to remain single.

For the record, my family and friends 'inquire' all the time. The difference is that 1)They are respectful about it; 2)They have no difficulties with the concept that it's my decision.

Anon 12:58 wrote:
-------------------------
So the jig is up, and look at what a fuss you guys are making! I think the reason so many of the guys on this site like to point at the "shrill" feminists is because they reminder them of themselves.
-------------------------
Um.....who's making the fuss? Us naughty, immature bachelors are just responding to Maken and her acolytes throwing a temper tantrum over their life not turning out like they planned. I have no obligation to fulfill the longings of some woman (particularly not those of a snotty, condescending & pompous little princess).

2/21/07, 4:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gAnonymous said...
12:58 PM

"the present distress" is NOT widely accepted by scholars to mean end times and nothing else. The debate between "end times" vs. "imminent persecution" has gone on for years, lest anyone fail to "do their homework"."

==I think you will find that scholars, not popular teachers, favor the end times view. Yes there are those who differ but even the vast majority of those who differ do not attempt to use 1Cor 7:26 to cancel out all of what Paul said about singleness in 1Corinthians 7. So even they are not Debbie Maken's friends.
____________________

"You cannot just snatch a verse out of its context, assuming the verses before and after it have no relevance."

==Excuse me, but that is what you are doing. Not me. I am examining how Paul defined "present distress" in the verses that follow verse 26. You, and Maken, are just using verse 26 to try to cancel out the rest of the chapter.

_______________________

"Besides, are you single so you can "care for the things of the Lord"? If not, don't even bother citing verses 32-35."

==Paul does not state that those are the only reasons a person can be single. Rather he states that undistracted devotion to the Lord is a result. Of course, as Jesus points out in Matthew 19, some make the choice to remain single for the Kingdom of God.

For me, I am single for alot of reasons. However I walk with the Lord and I trust Him. If He wants me to marry then He will lead me in that direction. At this time, however, my clear instructions on this are to trust Him.

_________________________

"In this regard, Martin, it's astounding how you can make all kinds of social observations about there being "very few solid Christian women" (because being a single guy, you'd know, right??) and just dismiss as "sociological, but not biblical" the numerically based concerns of people like Al Mohler. Please don't beat your chest about your view being "biblical", since you're definitely done a bit of social analysis here yourself."

==Interesting way to twist what I said. My point was that Mohler's concerns are based on sociological concerns and not Biblical concerns. Why? The Bible, the New Testament, has no problem with Christian singles. In fact it promotes singleness.

Social analysis is fine as long as it is not the basis of your argument.

__________________

"And don't you think that some of the reasons you listed "that have nothing to do with sin" are at least predicated in part by sin,"

==Since I believe in total depravity I think everything in our society has been affected by sin. However, as for the reasons people are single, none of them "have to be" sinful. They certainly "can be" but they don't have to be.

The condition of our modern society is certainly affected by sin. However that does not make singleness wrong or sinful.

_____________________

"Most of what you've written on men's standards seems to be about looks (despite your claims that it isn't the most important thing), Maken never even mentions looks"

==O, but she does mention social status (the pizza deliever guy?). So it is ok to break up with someone over their social status, how much money they make, but not because they are not attractive? If a person is truly "in love" neither will be that important. I am sure that both are part of the "larger picture" that people must consider when they first start considering a particular person but neither should be at the top of the list. I am not saying that neither are important but I am saying neither should be at the top of the list.

______________________

"Although I would agree that physical appearance is important for both sexes, it's ridiculously grandiose to suggest that there aren't enough attractive-enough single women in the church for the single guys there."

==Well I don't know what church you are attending but it is not like that in my area. But I think I have made this point.

________________

"I believe that God works in our lives, but HE IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN, which refutes the idea that he plans out our sins."

==What has that got to do with remaining single? Are you saying that singleness is a sin?

___________________

"We don't always know where one ends and the other begins. Even though everything happens under God's sovereignty and his plans are not frustrated by human sin, we need to respect the inscutiable nature of God and resist declaring everything that happens as "His will" or plan-- it's simply not our place to do so."

==I don't really disagree with much of that. However it does not answer my question. Do you believe that God can/will lead His people (sheep) where He wants them to go in regards to this issue (or any other)? That is the question I am hitting at.

____________________

"But I do think Maken has a point when she says that there is no biblical basis for today's kind of singleness,"

==In some cases that is 100% correct. However there are many cases where it is not that cut and dry. This is one reason why I oppose Debbie Maken as a false teacher. Singleness is not the problem, nor is the number of singles the problem, the problem is that some people (married and single) are not responsible and are not following the Lord. However a person who is following the Lord and who is single, no matter the reason, should not be made to feel shame, guilt, or anything like that. They have done nothing wrong and, since they are following the Lord, they are not missing anything in their life. After all does not the Bible say that He will not withhold any good thing from those who follow/obey/wait for Him? I think it does. So if God allows that person to remain single then that is a good thing and that, btw, is in perfect agreement with 1Corinthians 7.

_____________________

"and that calling it a gift has given it "hands off" status, as if no one should ever question whether or not our current trends of protracted singleness"

==I have issues with the way some people, including Maken, describe singleness and/or celibacy as a "gift". I don't have a problem with "protracted singleness", whatever that maybe, as long as the person is following and waiting upon the Lord.

_______________________

"At no time in history were single people, particularly single men, given a "right" to stay that way for long without any inquiry from their families and from the community at large."

==I am not sure how that should affect this issue. Part of that was due to the way their societies were structured (etc). History does not determine truth nor morality. So just because "this is the way they use to do it" does not mean it is Biblical nor does it mean it is the correct thing to do. There are many people in history who frankly would have been better off remaining single. A very good example of this is John Wesley.

Scripture has to be our main judge and guide on these matters. We can't judge people by history alone.

______________

"So the jig is up, and look at what a fuss you guys are making"

==The "jig", as you call it, will only be "up" when some realize that trying to explain away an entire section of Holy Scipture, base on a faulty understanding of one verse, is a very dangerous thing.

_______________

"I think the reason so many of the guys on this site like to point at the "shrill" feminists is because they reminder them of themselves."

==I can't speak to that.

2/21/07, 7:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"There are some very devout men who do not marry because they ARE singularly focused on God. It is a fact."

Right, they're called monks. Please, the vast majority of single Christian men hardly fall into this category."

==So only "monks" have a justified reason to be single? On what Biblical basis? Where is the Biblical foundation for someone leaving society and becoming a monk? I can't find any.

As for your suggestion that "the vast majority of single Christian men hardly fall into this category.", well, that is unsupportable. Besides what the "vast majority" do does not determine right or wrong. You cannot declare something 'error' simply because some, or many, abuse it.

2/21/07, 7:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do I think all singleness "is a sin"? No, but I don't assume that it's justifiable by scripture either! I'm not God, I don't judge one person "sinful" and declare that another person has "done nothing wrong" (which is pretty simplistic, since it isn't so cut and dried that some nice Christian people have gotten rejected by the opposite sex and are therefore "blameless", as if anyone is "blameless" in any area of our lives-- isn't this why we have the cross?).

Finding a spouse is harder for some people than others, and I don't know how God judges people who can't find a spouse, despite their best efforts with their strengths and limitations, which can be caused by varying degrees of sin, their own and/or someone else's. The sins of one group can also impact another group, as is the case with the sins of earlier "generation of sexual revelution" putting chaste women in this current generation at a distinct disadvantage. So you don't just say, do-di-do, I guess it's God's will and plan for the cows that don't get bought when the other cows give the milk away for free. No! You acknowledge the consequences of sin, and fight sin so that we can get back in line with God's will that we obey him!

People assume that if a woman doesn't marry, then God has some other "plan for her life", like missions or something, and I think that's overstepping divine boundaries to make those interpretations. I believe takes the man-made ashes in our lives and works them to his good. But some good things can be withheld from some good people, because of the sins of another group. To call that a "gift" or "God's plan" for an individual is to mischaracterize the very nature of God, who allows sinful things to happen in his permissive will, but is not the cause of it.

2/21/07, 1:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One other thing:

There have been a number of guys here that have been pointing to the stereotypical chaste and pious "church lady" type (as encouraged by the likes of Carolyn McCulley et al and other Christian writers that have glorified singleness) as if these women are resistant to marriage because of their high standards of holiness and ability to provide. I would say that there is some truth to these charges and point out that you have the whole "gift of singleness" theology to thank for that. People like Debbie Maken telling people of both sexes to get over it.

BTW- There's a male version of the pious single church lady: the guy who, despite a proven surplus of church going single women in this country, complains that there aren't even "godly" single women to his liking, and likes to exaggerate the proportion of wanton hussies and golddigging divorcees in the church. And of course, any woman who doesn't fall into this category is unattractive, sexually uptight and doesn't appreciate the fact that he's such a NICE GUY (as if it was ever enough for either sex to "just be nice").

It's the "Madonna-Whore Complex", evangelical style.

2/21/07, 4:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:19 PM said...
"BTW- There's a male version of the pious single church lady: the guy who, despite a proven surplus of church going single women in this country, complains that there aren't even "godly" single women to his liking, and likes to exaggerate the proportion of wanton hussies and golddigging divorcees in the church."

Who are you refering to when you say "wanton hussies"?

"Reformed" women like Dawn Eden who've had more pricks than a second hand dartboard for the last 20 years yet now think they are "chaste and pure" because they suddenly want a Christian husband ?

Are you saying a serious Christian man should actually consider marrying a patently disingenuous woman like that?

2/21/07, 4:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"People like Debbie Maken telling people of both sexes to get over it."

No, no, no. Debbie Maken is demanding men be able to support a family, to be masculine - yet submitted to a woman's direction when she feels compelled to be in charge. I won't date a Maken-grrl. They want too much. Maken is not telling both sexes to "get over it". She is a Christian feminist; insisting only she has the answers to what is wrong with the Christian dating scene.

The women who believe Maken are taking an intolerant stance toward men who choose to stay single for whatever reason. For those who wish to marry, they are attacked or insulted when they don't pursue marriage on Maken's timetable.

It is ironic that Maken rushes to judge men yet doesn't seem to care that men care very little for her advice.

I honestly believe we'll see a lot of women reach age 50 with no chance of marriage due to an over-reliance on Maken's bad advice. I will probably get married again, but not to anyone who insists I'm a eunuch or wants to get married within 3 months.

The real issue that nobody talks about with Christian dating is the numbers. Most strong Christian men are already married. The ones who are left are nominal Christians at best. The solution for women? Marry a nominal Christian or spend your life bitter and single - clutching Maken's book and attacking the small number of single Christian men who might have been interested in you.

Simple choice, really.

2/21/07, 5:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Foster,

I think you meant most Christian men are married, lots of single guys are nominal Christians or secular and there are some who are devout but choose to stay single.

I do agree with your larger point.

2/21/07, 5:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What I find amusing are the followers of the respective "relationship experts".

The McCulley groupies study all about marriage and spirituality. They interview married women, learn to knit and keep house. They don't date.

The Maken groupies are downright confrontational. They cannot see mature people disagreeing with Maken, so they have no tolerance for dissent. They don't date.

The Dawn Eden groupies are scary. Her appeal is that she teaches a life of wild promiscuity is fine; as long as you start thinking about being a good girl when you reach 40. These groupies don't date, they hook-up.

So, I guess there is a version of "New Christian Feminism" for all tastes.

2/21/07, 7:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Churches can be very feminine, which keeps men away.

Women don't save themselves for marriage. This is a big turnoff for a lot of men. Believe me, exclusivity is very important to young men.

Divorce isn't just an imaginary threat. It is real. Being married a short time, then losing your kids and having to pay your ex for a lifetime is cruel and unusual. Guys are catching on and staying single.

Women are enjoying the right to an education, a social life and a career. They are putting off marriage as much as men are.

Marriage is no longer a relationship where one man takes care of a wife and family and she is submitted to him. It is a partnership of two working adults who are more competitors than partners.

I believe all this lashing out at the "gift of singleness" is a lot of attacking a straw man. I don't see preachers on street corners blessing singles for having a gift. I also don't see men being cautious as a problem. If women didn't want to rush into marriage at age 21, why should single men be dying to marry them when they turn 40?

As far as singleness or being married; sinful or not, I think knightwatch answered that question perfectly.

2/21/07, 8:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
1:16 PM

"Finding a spouse is harder for some people than others, and I don't know how God judges people who can't find a spouse[/quote]

==Where is your "SCRIPTURAL" proof that God judges anyone for not marrying? Book/Chapter/Verse please.

_______________________

"People assume that if a woman doesn't marry, then God has some other "plan for her life", like missions or something, and I think that's overstepping divine boundaries to make those interpretations."

==I don't make such assumptions about anyone. However if someone is not married, whatever the reason, their focus should be on the Lord and serving Him. Not on finding a spouse. They are to remain where God has placed them until, or unless, God moves them (1Cor 7:20-28).

_____________________

"But some good things can be withheld from some good people, because of the sins of another group."

==If a person is walking with the Lord Scripture promises He will not allow any good thing to be withheld from them.

"No good thing does He withhold from those who walk uprightly" (Ps 84:11).

"O fear the Lord, you His saints; for to those who fear Him there is no want" (Ps 34:9)

"The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want" (Ps 23:1)

So if a person is walking with the Lord, obeying Him, and He does not bring a marriage partner into their life then they have not missed anything they needed. If they had needed that good thing then God would have provided it.

If the actions of people can keep God's blessings from His people, can keep God from doing what He promised, then what does that say? I believe what the Scriptures say on this.

2/21/07, 8:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
One other thing

"People like Debbie Maken telling people of both sexes to get over it."

==Maken is trying to shame and guilt people into getting married. That is not a good thing. She has also twisted Scripture, to support her faulty teachings, and that certainly is not a good thing. I see nothing good in the teachings of Debbie Maken, nothing good at all. Certainly I am not saying that everything she says is wrong. However her faulty teaching waters down her correct teachings.

__________________

"the guy who, despite a proven surplus of church going single women in this country, complains that there aren't even "godly" single women to his liking"

==I see you are sticking with the old standby. Well there is not "a proven surplus of church going single women in this country". They just are not there. If we examine the stats it "looks" like they are everywhere. However most of those "single" women have boyfriends (regular dates) or, for whatever reason, they are not appealing to most guys. Now I will say the same thing for guys. If there is a surplus of women in the church why do some guys, who really want to get married, are never able to meet someone to marry them? The answer, there is something about them that women don't like. They are not appealing to women.

________________

"and likes to exaggerate the proportion of wanton hussies and golddigging divorcees in the church."

==I would never date much, less marry, a divorced woman. Doing so would make me guilty of adultery (Matt 19:9, Mk 10:10-12). I am aware of the exception clause. However I am also aware of the fact that most divorces are not based upon that clause. This is why people must be very careful before they get married. There is no option(s) for divorce (Matt 19:1-12)

I would no more date/marry a divorced woman then I would date/marry a unbeliever.

However, to be honest, I no longer thing you are taking this issue seriously. In fact I don't think we are communicating here at all.

2/21/07, 8:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm somewhat understanding of the women who post here as it must be very painful to be single past 35 and wondering if "it" will ever happen.

I honestly don't feel these women are really serious about the things they are debating. It's clear Maken takes great liberties with scripture; yet her conclusions so perfectly match the feelings of these women. It doesn't matter if this blog finds every misuse of scripture in Maken's book. What matters is a single woman's desperate heart. Maken feeds their resentment of men.

I had an email discussion with Maken when she first started blogging. I asked her, even if the book is right in it's particulars (and it isn't) would she at least acknowledge the fact that her recommended approach to men may simply cause more antagonism. She dismissed the suggestion, insisting her message was what men needed to hear.

Gee, thanks for the consideration.

Now I see notes about Maken's book on other blogs which hail her message as being sent directly from God through Maken "for such a time as this." Wow! a relationship "Quran" for "such a time as this!"

The only thing single women need to know about Maken's book is that it is largely an opinion piece. It isn't scriptural and won't help anyone move toward marriage. I know it can seem to be an inspiring "take action" type of book, but the message is very off-target.

2/22/07, 5:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'm somewhat understanding of the women who post here as it must be very painful to be single past 35 and wondering if "it" will ever happen."

==I agree totally. However I think that the reason many single Christians, mainly females, are depressed is that they have their focus on the wrong things. They have their focus on marriage, they have placed their worth in marriage, and they have placed their hope in marriage. So if it does not happen then, guess what, they understandably get upset.

All Christians, mainly singles, need to take what Paul said in Colossians 3 very seriously.

"Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth" vs2

Our focus should be on the Lord. That is Paul's whole point in 1Corinthians 7:32-35

"But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the Lord."

Notice the Apostle's focus there. He is not saying to single Christian women, "O, you poor woman. You’re 35 and not married! What a tragedy! Poor you!". Nor is he saying to single Christian men, "O, you’re 37 and not married? You better get busy! You are wasting your life you lazy bum! Don't you know you are denying all this Christian women good husbands? Get out and find yourself a wife and be a real man for once in your life!". The Apostle does NOT say any of that in fact, I would argue, he says the exact opposite.

Notice what Paul says to single Christian women. He says that they are “concerned about the things of the Lord”. In other words they have more time to serve the Lord in whatever way they are called to. That maybe in the prayer closet, in the nursery at church, on the mission field, a soup kitchen, or a crisis center. Paul views singleness in Christian women as a chance for them to throw themselves 100% into the Lord’s work. Notice what Paul says about the unmarried Christian woman: “The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit”. That is where single Christian women need to be focused. Not on finding a husband, or why they can’t find them a husband, but rather on serving the Lord and being holy in body and spirit.

Now notice what Paul says to single Christian men. Also notice how vastly different it is from what Mohler and Maken say to single Christian men. Paul says that they, like single Christian women, can be totally devoted to the Lord. A single Christian man can give is undivided attention to serving the Lord. This is the positive result of a man choosing to remain single (for a period of time or for life). This is also the positive result of a man being single for reasons beyond his control. Do all single men take this positive route and make the best of their single lives? No, however let’s note that not all single Christian women do either. We are all sinners and one result of that is that we fail to do what we sometimes should do.

The point I am making here is that there is nothing wrong, or shameful, about a person remaining single till later in life or for their whole life. Debbie Maken and Al Mohler may think there is and someone’s parents might not like the choice but, from God’s point of view, there is nothing wrong with it. That is why Maken, and others on this board, who claim that God will judge someone for remaining single are so very wrong. Notice again in 1Corinthians 7 how Paul makes clear that what he is saying is not a commandment. Neither are Jesus’ statements in Matthew 19. Those who can remain single do good to remain single. Those who cannot remain single and pure should get married (1Cor 7:9). Certainly the vast majority of Christians fall into the last group. However large numbers of Christians can fall into the first group as well. If singles would get their minds off themselves and start serving the Lord they would find that they are not so miserable. Based on Scripture I believe God is going to judge singles more harshly for wasting their single years rather than judging them harshly for remaining single for a time or for life.



“Maken's book is that it is largely an opinion piece. It isn't scriptural and won't help anyone move toward marriage. I know it can seem to be an inspiring "take action" type of book, but the message is very off-target.”

==A desperate, angry, lonely person is not attractive to the opposite sex. It is as simple as that. Just another reason for singles to focus on serving Jesus instead of serving themselves (via endless dates, reading books like Maken’s, etc).

2/22/07, 6:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

I agree with you completely - and you clarified some things for me. Cheers!

I have been looking at the singleness debate as a social issue; and for most of the desperate single women, it really is a social issue.

An example of where the social reality and belief systems intersect is found in a small town in Southern California called Fallbrook. I lived there for a time and attended a church with about 14 regular members and a handful of visitors now and then. It was the usual; older couples and single women. No children attending at all.

In other parts of town were Catholic churches, Pentecostal and Evangelical churches bursting at the seams with Mexican-Americans and recently arrived illegals.

Which group was obviously reproducing?

The men worked hard and the women had babies and kept the house. Some women worked, but most didn't.

From a sociological point of view, it is simple. The cultures that flourish put an emphasis on marriage before education and work. The young women have babies first, then worry about working a job later.

I'm not going to say women should lose the right to attend college and work during their most fertile years, but the same women have nothing to complain about if they reach 35 or 40 with great memories but no husband or babies. The women I've tried to date in that age range want a baby RIGHT NOW! They want to get married RIGHT NOW!

So, where were you when I graduated college at age 23 and had a decent job? "Oh, I had this wonderful job with such and such company. I really needed a long time just for myself. I dated and had fun, but now that I'm over 35, I have to get married."

Now they are rabid for marriage, but they are older, less attractive, less fertile, still hung up on old boyfriends, etc.

In steps Maken to tell them they are perfect, it's the men who are in defiance of the Word of God!! (Insert thunderclap here)

Sorry ladies, if you wait too long, the party will be over. You'll have to take whatever you can get. There may be nothing left. It doesn't make the remaining single guys evil; it simply means your priorities weren't right.

2/22/07, 7:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Foster said...

“I'm not going to say women should lose the right to attend college and work during their most fertile years, but the same women have nothing to complain about if they reach 35 or 40 with great memories but no husband or babies.”

==College will only delay a person until they are 22 or 23 depending upon their birthday (I graduated when I was 23). If they go on to graduate school right after college that is only another two years (25) in most graduate programs. Many people today, thanks to accredited online schools, can earn a graduate degree later without disrupting their life. So if a woman waits until she is 35 or 40 to get married then she can’t blame school. For crying out loud I know college “kids” (19-21) who are going to school, work, and are married. If a woman waits until 35 or above to marry that is her choice. She can’t blame anyone, or anything, but herself. She made the choice.

“The women I've tried to date in that age range want a baby RIGHT NOW! They want to get married RIGHT NOW!”

==I am 32 and I am not dating anyone. What you have said here is the exact reason why. Between work, earning a second masters degree, church, and sleep I don’t have time for the pressure. One of my brothers just had to break up with a women (early 20s now) who was already calling herself “Mrs….”. She still has another year to go in her undergraduate program and he just started working on his first masters degree and wants to get a PhD. Since he broke up with her she has literally been stalking him in order to try to get him back. She calls him non-stop, leaves presents (etc). It is really sad. The older she gets, I suspect, the worse she will get.

“Oh, I had this wonderful job with such and such company. I really needed a long time just for myself. I dated and had fun, but now that I'm over 35, I have to get married."

==My response to that is fine, but don’t pressure me now because of your choices in the past. I also would never even consider marrying someone who was just looking to “get married”. That rings of settling. If I ever get married it will be because both of us really want to marry the other. No desperation, no settling. Pipe dream? Maybe, but then again I use to say if I was not married by 30 I never would. Maybe that will end up being true? Either way I am going to do what the Lord has called me to do, I am going to serve Him, and I am going to live a blessed life. And when the time comes when I will not be near close family I will not sit around on Thanksgiving/Christmas feeling sorry for myself. I will get out and go volunteer at a local soup kitchen or something. Instead of focusing on myself I will focus on doing what Jesus would want me to do. It also helps put things in proper perspective.

“Now they are rabid for marriage, but they are older, less attractive, less fertile, still hung up on old boyfriends, etc.”

==Women, like men, only get less attractive because they fail to take care of themselves. Stop eating at McDonalds, Burger King, and Taco Bell! Eat right, exercise, drink plenty of water, don’t snack on cookies!! If a person takes care of themselves they will age better.

“if you wait too long, the party will be over. You'll have to take whatever you can get. There may be nothing left.”

==I don’t fully agree with that. If she is serving the Lord and she wants to marry, and it is in God’s will for her to marry, she will. My step sister was in her thirties before she married. God brought her together with a Godly Christian gentlemen who had just finished law school. In his appearance and career he is hardly leftovers. She had prayed for years for a husband and God, in His own timing, provided. She did not have to drive herself silly looking for a husband. She went on mission trips, taught children, and focused most of her time on serving the Lord while praying for a husband. She met him, and three months later they were engaged, that summer married. That was around ten years ago and they are happily married with children today. So there is hope for men and women who are over 35 and still single. However my message to them is to focus on serving the Lord while they pray for the Lord to provide a spouse for them. Also they should be willing to be satisfied with whatever the Lord does in their lives.

Martin

2/22/07, 9:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin said:

If there is a surplus of women in the church why do some guys, who really want to get married, are never able to meet someone to marry them? The answer, there is something about them that women don't like. They are not appealing to women."

It couldn't be because some of these guys are "focussing on the wrong things, could it? lol I think you pretty much answered your own question here. Beyond helping each other out careerwise, men really haven't done much to help those guys who are struggle in this area. It has never been much of a priority for men to really understand how to be appealing to women. The going attitude is "I work hard, I'm a nice guy, the women I want should want me back".

Earlier you were basically dismissing the saying that the vast majority of Christians get married, so I could just as easily dismiss your concerns on the same grounds. Actually, more easily, because of the abundance of single church going women, to which you respond to my citations of proof with your fingers in your ears going "I can't hear you".

It's interesting how guys on this thread will either deny outright that there's a shortage of single Christian men in the church or admit it, but blame the women for it. It would be nice if you could assume that the Christian women still single in their 30's were the promiscious prodigals or the stereotypical career-driven viragos, but there are just as many traditionally minded women in that age group who have been praying since their early 20s for a husband and children. They haven't been procrastinating because of career as much as the dilemma of whether or not to settle for someone they wouldn't normally consider, if their pool of options were more at par with the larger population. If you say no, you're a frigid career woman, if you give him a chance but just can get attracted to the guy, then you "led him on".

No doubt about it, things have changed and it's not as easy for men to impress women as it was when they were the sole breadwinners. Rather than bemoaning the lost past and blaming this current generation of young women who had nothing to do with those changes, those of you who can't even shoot fish in a barrel would do well to stop complaining and consult with guys who have successfully found a wife among their peers, despite whatever they lack in the way of looks and material prestige. There's no other way.

2/22/07, 10:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said... 10:55 AM

"It couldn't be because some of these guys are "focussing on the wrong things, could it? lol"

==Are you willing to say the same thing about single Christian women? I said the same about both.

_____________________

"Beyond helping each other out careerwise, men really haven't done much to help those guys who are struggle in this area. It has never been much of a priority for men to really understand how to be appealing to women."

==I think that statement is too overly general.

____________________

"Earlier you were basically dismissing the saying that the vast majority of Christians get married, so I could just as easily dismiss your concerns on the same grounds."

==Not sure what comment you are refering to but I have stated here, clearly, that the majority of Christians should and do get married. So I am not sure what you are refering to here.

____________________

"Actually, more easily, because of the abundance of single church going women, to which you respond to my citations of proof with your fingers in your ears going "I can't hear you"."

==No, actually I have just said things are not as you make them seem. I have given reasons for this.

________________________

"It would be nice if you could assume that the Christian women still single in their 30's were the promiscious prodigals or the stereotypical career-driven viragos, but there are just as many traditionally minded women in that age group who have been praying since their early 20s for a husband and children."

==I pray that the Lord answers their prayer (as He did that of my step sister...see above post). Either way I pray that He gives them His grace so they can be fruitful in their walk with Him (1Cor 7:32-35, 2Cor 12:7-10, Col 3:1-3, Matt 6:31-34, Ps 37:1-11).

____________________

"Rather than bemoaning the lost past and blaming this current generation of young women who had nothing to do with those changes, those of you who can't even shoot fish in a barrel would do well to stop complaining and consult with guys who have successfully found a wife among their peers"

==Of course I am not complaining (see post above). If I wanted to get married soon I would have little/no trouble finding someone. Of course I don't do things that way since I do believe in following Jesus and doing what He calls me to do. What I am trying to do here is I am trying to argue a Biblical point about the error of Debbie Maken and those who agree with her.

So instead of talking about shooting those poor fish in that bucket why don't you get your Bible out and support your position?

____________________

"despite whatever they lack in the way of looks and material prestige. There's no other way."

==So you agree with me that Maken's point about the pizza delievery man (and her friend) was wrong/materialistic/worldly/carnal/fleshly (you pick the term)?

Martin.

2/22/07, 12:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"'It couldn't be because some of these guys are "focussing on the wrong things, could it? lol'==Are you willing to say the same thing about single Christian women? I said the same about both."

"Mainly female" is what you said.

"'Actually, more easily, because of the abundance of single church going women, to which you respond to my citations of proof with your fingers in your ears going "I can't hear you'.==No, actually I have just said things are not as you make them seem. I have given reasons for this." Reasons? Where did you give any reasons, let alone valid ones? Face it, you hadn't looked farther than your own church walls, I've cited facts-- this is new information for you. And all your talk about praying for women in that situation is meaningless unless your are sincerely interesting in knowing more and doing something about it.

"Of course I am not complaining...instead of talking about shooting those poor fish in that bucket why don't you get your Bible out and support your position?" Not complaining?? rotflmao!!!! You jumped in here complaining: "the problem is that there are very few solid Christian women my age (early 30s) in the church". And we're still waiting for biblical support from YOU about requiring "permission from the Lord" in regards to mate finding.

"Beyond helping each other out careerwise, men really haven't done much to help those guys who are struggle in this area. It has never been much of a priority for men to really understand how to be appealing to women.'==I think that statement is too overly general"

Nevah gonna get it, nevah, nevah...

"So you agree with me that Maken's point about the pizza delievery man (and her friend) was wrong/materialistic/worldly/carnal/fleshly (you pick the term)?" Look, I'm not about justifying everything that Maken ever said. As you said, things like looks and important, but they are only part of the picture. As for Maken's friend, at least she gave the guy a chance.

Martin, you know what's so irritating about the way you talk about yourself and the way you live your life? It's as if you think that because you're a Christian, God is appointing your every footstep, as if whatever you are doing right now is what God wants you to do, His perfect plan in action. I'm not saying that by not rushing out and getting a wife that you are living in sin, that's not up to me to say. But when you say that you "don't have time for the pressure", it just smacks of avoidance and blame. At least Wombatty has the honesty to say "it's MY decision".

And to interpret 1 Cor 7:32-35 to think that "total devotion to the Lord" is the usual and expected consequence of being single for men? That sounds great on paper, but that rarely plays out in practice. If you can't see the reason why all societies put at least some pressure on men to marry for the betterment of those societies at large, then there's no point in even discussing this with you.

I don't think you see with your rationale with its prooftexts like, "They are to remain where God has placed them until, or unless, God moves them (1Cor 7:20-28)", it validates procrastination and passivity for almost anything, not just marriage. Finally, church leaders are starting to realize that the "passive Christian guy" thing is widespread, problematic and fuelled by this kind of inappropriate biblical teaching, another consequence of which is that it fuels another kind of "hyper-believer" at the other end of the spectrum, who conjures up instructions from God on everything from who to date to what to have for breakfast.

2/22/07, 2:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

2:58 PM
Anonymous said...


"Reasons? Where did you give any reasons, let alone valid ones?"

==Well if you have been reading my posts you would know I have talked about many of these women already have regular dates/boyfriends (however you wish to word it). I have also talked about how others of them are just not what most guys are looking for. If you don't like those reasons so be it, but they are truthful and real reasons. Valid or not, that is the way it is. We must always deal with reality.
_______________________

"Face it, you hadn't looked farther than your own church walls,"

==Since you don't know me at all I find this comment rather funny.

_______________________

"And all your talk about praying for women in that situation is meaningless"

==I regard that statement of yours as a statement of dangerous unbelief(Phil 4:4-7).

__________________________

"unless your are sincerely interesting in knowing more and doing something about it."

==I am not interested in doing anything about something Scripture never once says we must do anything about. You have yet to prove that Scripture requires people to marry. If you believe you can prove such a thing, well, do it.

_____________________

"Not complaining?? rotflmao!!!! You jumped in here complaining"

==I "jumped in", whatever that means, stating facts that refutes the distorted and unBiblical error of Debbie Maken. Her teachings are carnal, fleshly, and very much worldly (pick yourself up by your own boot straps type stuff). The effects of her teachings in your statements about prayer/faith only support my worst fears.

______________________

"And we're still waiting for biblical support from YOU about requiring "permission from the Lord" in regards to mate finding."

==I believe Scripture states that we should "in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving" make our "requests be made known to God" (Phil 4:5). I also believe that Jesus Himself stated that believers should "seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matt 6:33). I also take seriously the teachings of the Apostle Paul in 1Corinthians 7 where he states clearly that if a person is not married they should "not seek a wife" (1Cor 7:27) but if they do and they marry then they "have not sinned" (1Cor 7:28) because this is not a commandment (1Cor 7:32,35). I also take seriously what Paul says about the benefits of remaining single (1Cor 7:32-35) and about how it is good to not marry/remarry if one is able (1Cor 7:8-9,36-39). I also take seriously Jesus' statement in Matthew 19:10-12. Here Jesus' disciples, responding to His harsh teachings on divorce, say "it is better not to marry " (vs10). Jesus does not reply with a rebuke as Maken probably would to such a suggestion. Rather Jesus states, "not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given" (vs11). Then Jesus sums up His teaching by saying "he who is able to accept this, let him accept it" (vs12). In this chapter our Lord gives three basic groups of people who don't marry. These groups are not presented as a complete list, He is just giving three general groups. Paul, in 1Corinthians 7, speaking under inspiration of the Holy Spirit makes clear that a benefit of choosing to remain single is that the person can give undistracted devotion to the Lord. However Paul also makes clear a more general benefit of remaining single...less trouble in this world (1Cor 7:28). In case you are wondering I believe that the "present distress" in verse 26 is concerning the fact that "the time has been shortened" (vs29) and that "the form of this world is passing away" (vs31). Thus the present distress is the end times and the troubles that come with it (see for example 2Tim 3:1-5, 2Pet 3:3-7, etc).

So marriage and singleness are two options that each person must choose between. Clearly there are several factors that weigh in that choice. However I believe the general teaching of Scripture is that no major life choice, or minor one, should be made without seeking the Lord's face. For example James says, "if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him" (Jms 1:5). Psalm 37:3ff tell us to "trust in the Lord and do good" and that if we "delight" ourselves "in the Lord" He will give us "the desires" of our heart. He goes on to say that believers should commit our "way to the Lord" to "trust in Him, and He will do it". We are told to "rest in the Lord and wait patiently for Him".

Saying that a person should not seek the Lord's guidance on the issue of marriage and singleness is a violation of each one of those Scriptures (and much more).

Your position, and Maken's, violates the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 19 and of Paul in 1Corinthians 7. You can try to explain away these texts by twisting them, ignoring them, or by reading your own opinion into them (eisegesis).

People being concerned about getting married and allowing that to cloud their focus and consume their time is unBiblical. Our focus should be the Lord and our purpose should be to obey Him and do His will. We will not do that perfectly on this side of eternity but we should still, with His help and guidance, follow Him. For many marriage is part of His plan for them (yet we are never told in Scripture that such a marriage must be early in life) yet for others His plan may not include marriage. By walking with Him, and by trusting Him, we learn to make His will our will so that we want what He wants (Matt 6:10, 1Jn 5:14-15).

____________________


"Look, I'm not about justifying everything that Maken ever said. As you said, things like looks and important, but they are only part of the picture. As for Maken's friend, at least she gave the guy a chance."

==She dumped him for a very shallow/fleshly reason and Maken applauded her for that. That is carnality and shows the heart of her teachings. This should warn everyone away from Maken's teachings. She is also holding a double standard because I promise if a man had dumped a woman for a reason like that, Maken would have slammed him for doing so.

_____________________

"you know what's so irritating about the way you talk about yourself and the way you live your life? It's as if you think that because you're a Christian, God is appointing your every footstep,"

==I certainly hope and pray that the Lord is guiding my "every footstep". Why? Because if they are it means the right one is Lord and Master of my life. Sadly all too often, like Paul, I find myself failing to do His perfect will. Yet we have the promise:

"Depart from evil and do good,
So you will abide forever.
For the Lord loves Justice
and does not forsake His godly ones;
They are preserved forever" (Ps 37:27-28).

This is not automatic drive, it is a daily struggle. Learning to trust in the Lord is a lifelong lesson.

_____________________

"as if whatever you are doing right now is what God wants you to do, His perfect plan in action."

==Have I ever said that everything I do is God's "perfect plan in action"? Nope.

________________________

"But when you say that you "don't have time for the pressure", it just smacks of avoidance and blame."

==Actually it is in perfect agreement with 1Corinthians 7:32-38. But it also happens to be true. I am typing right this very moment between studying, reading, and household duties. If I were to marry now it would be very much unfair to my poor wife who would have to share me with my studies and books. I doubt there are many women out there willing to do that.

________________________

"And to interpret 1 Cor 7:32-35 to think that "total devotion to the Lord" is the usual and expected consequence of being single for men?"

==Did I say "usual and expected"? Let me check. Nope. Here is what I actually said:

"A single Christian man can give is undivided attention to serving the Lord. This is the positive result of a man choosing to remain single (for a period of time or for life). This is also the positive result of a man being single for reasons beyond his control. Do all single men take this positive route and make the best of their single lives? No, however let’s note that not all single Christian women do either. We are all sinners and one result of that is that we fail to do what we sometimes should do."

____________________________

"it validates procrastination and passivity for almost anything, not just marriage."

==Wrong. Procrastination is a sin. If we must do something we should do it. However we are never told in Scripture that we "must marry".

___________________________

"Finally, church leaders are starting to realize that the "passive Christian guy" thing is widespread, problematic and fuelled by this kind of inappropriate biblical teaching,"

==I am not supporting any form of passive Christianity. I am talking about marriage. Here I think you have misunderstood what I am saying. I don't believe people should delay marriage simply because they want to "have fun before they get tied to the old ball and chain". I don't support that at all. I am simply refuting Maken's faulty assertion that there is a Biblical command to marry.

___________________________

"another consequence of which is that it fuels another kind of "hyper-believer" at the other end of the spectrum, who conjures up instructions from God on everything from who to date to what to have for breakfast."

==So, once again, you show that you don't believe that God is interested in our day-to-day affairs. I hate to tell you this but He very much is. I am very sorry you don't believe that. However, and I must admit this, I don't ask the Lord what I should have for breakfast. Two reasons: First, nine out of ten days I have the same thing. Second, that is going a bit too far.

Now since I believe people should date soley for the purpose of marriage I don't believe in "social dating". So if someone is planning on dating that means they are planning on marriage. That should certainly be bathed in prayer.

2/22/07, 3:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"'Reasons? Where did you give any reasons, let alone valid ones?'==Well if you have been reading my posts you would know I have talked about many of these women already have regular dates/boyfriends....I have also talked about how others of them are just not what most guys are looking for. If you don't like those reasons so be it, but they are truthful and real reasons. Valid or not, that is the way it is. We must always deal with reality." There's no reason to think that there aren't just as many Christian women with boyfriends as there are guys with girlfriends, so your first reason pretty much cancels itself out. As for the second one, you're basically proving my point, which is that despite the fact that there's an abundance of single women in the church, you made the ignorant COMPLAINT that there aren't enough to YOUR LIKING! Instead of wiggling out of being confronted with your oversights about the shortage of single men to single women in the church, you might want to try simply admitting that before lecturing anyone on "reality" or accuse them of being "carnal", "fleshly" and "worldly"!

"'Face it, you hadn't looked farther than your own church walls,'==Since you don't know me at all I find this comment rather funny." You said it yourself: "Actually I am just looking around. You ignore that my observations are based on what I have "seen" with my own two eyes. Those observations may not be true in every place but they are true observations of my general geographical area"

"And all your talk about praying for women in that situation is meaningless"==I regard that statement of yours as a statement of dangerous unbelief(Phil 4:4-7)...I am not interested in doing anything about something Scripture never once says we must do anything about" Spare me the pious admonishments, it's meaningless to say that you pray about a problem and then deny the extent to which exists.

"And we're still waiting for biblical support from YOU about requiring "permission from the Lord" in regards to mate finding." Which you failed to deliver on in your long winded reply, which was basically a rehash of points we've already covered, at the end of which you falsely accuse me of saying that people should not seek God's guidance! It's one thing to seek God's guidance and another thing altogether to assume it. Would you write an exam without having studied much and expect God to just give you the answers? NO! And that's what people are doing nowadays in response to a lot of these hyperspiritual teachings: they think that if God wants them to have a spouse, He'll darn well give them one regardless of their efforts, because, of course, Paul said "do not seek a wife".

One thing you are overlooking about the teachings of Christ on singleness that you've mentioned is INTENTIONALITY. He's talking about choosing to remain single for the sake of the kingdom, which Maken acknowledges, despite the outlandish perjoratives you direct at her.

"She dumped him for a very shallow/fleshly reason and Maken applauded her for that...She is also holding a double standard because I promise if a man had dumped a woman for a reason like that, Maken would have slammed him for doing so." You don't know that! I think she'd be just as hard on a woman who underfunctions, in some ways, maybe harder.

"I am talking about marriage. Here I think you have misunderstood what I am saying. I don't believe people should delay marriage simply because they want to 'have fun before they get tied to the old ball and chain'. I don't support that at all. I am simply refuting Maken's faulty assertion that there is a Biblical command to marry." It's a little late to portray yourself as pro-marriage champion after having said "I am not interested in doing anything about something Scripture never once says we must do anything about"

2/22/07, 7:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
7:45 PM

"There's no reason to think that there aren't just as many Christian women with boyfriends as there are guys with girlfriends, so your first reason pretty much cancels itself out."

==You said that there was an abundance of single Christian women in the church. I pointed out that many of them have boyfriends. You did not like that. Too bad, its true.

_______________________

"As for the second one, you're basically proving my point, which is that despite the fact that there's an abundance of single women in the church"

==Many of whom have "boyfriends"...

__________________________

"Instead of wiggling out of being confronted with your oversights about the shortage of single men to single women in the church, you might want to try simply admitting that before lecturing anyone on "reality" or accuse them of being "carnal", "fleshly" and "worldly"!"

==I am being honest about why some women in the church can't find husbands. Again, it is reality. I did not create this reality. What I called carnal (etc) was Maken's approval of the shallow reason her friend dumped that guy. Two different issues.

________________________

"You said it yourself: "Actually I am just looking around. You ignore that my observations are based on what I have "seen" with my own two eyes. Those observations may not be true in every place but they are true observations of my general geographical area""

==Right, but I also talked about other churches. Did I not? I believe so. One of those churches was a very, very large church (1,500+).

_______________________

"at the end of which you falsely accuse me of saying that people should not seek God's guidance!"

==I can only go by what you said. Early on you replied to the idea that a person should seek the Lord's guidance in the area of marriage/singleness with the phrase "get real". Your further comments in response to my advice for people to pray has gone down hill from there. Everything I said in my "long winded reply" was Biblical. It all applies to this issue, and, it all refutes your position.

___________________

"It's one thing to seek God's guidance and another thing altogether to assume it."

==I think a believer, who is walking with the Lord, can assume that if they seek the Lord's guidance He will provide that. I think I covered this in my "long winded reply". There are plenty of promises in the Scriptures concerning this.

__________________________

"And that's what people are doing nowadays in response to a lot of these hyperspiritual teachings"

==Seeking the Lord's guidance in one of the most important areas of life is "hyperspiritual"? Wow.

______________________________

"they think that if God wants them to have a spouse, He'll darn well give them one regardless of their efforts, because, of course, Paul said "do not seek a wife"."

==Well Paul did say that. I believe the Sovereign God of the universe can and does answer prayer. I have seen it happen many, many times. I mentioned my step-sister, and I know others. They did not drive themselves crazy searching for a husband. The Lord did provide. You may not believe it happens, which is really sad, but it does. Scripture says it does and I have seen it more than once. I have seen God answer prayers in my own life and I have seen it in others. Sometimes those prayers are small, sometimes dramatic (in all sorts of areas).

________________________

"One thing you are overlooking about the teachings of Christ on singleness that you've mentioned is INTENTIONALITY. He's talking about choosing to remain single for the sake of the kingdom, which Maken acknowledges, despite the outlandish perjoratives you direct at her."

==She claims that those are the only reasons one can remain single and not be wrong for doing so. Yet Jesus does not say that. I also pointed out how Jesus' answer to the disciple's question is vastly different from how Maken would answer it. Jesus did not say, "O, you better go find you a wife", no. He said that those who could accept the statement should. Paul adds to that. In other words Jesus, and Paul, leave the choice up the individual. There is no mandate to marry in Jesus' teachings or in Paul's. Nor do either require some super ministry in order to remain single.

___________________


"It's a little late to portray yourself as pro-marriage champion after having said "I am not interested in doing anything about something Scripture never once says we must do anything about"

==What? Are you honestly serious? Am I banging my head against a brickwall here?

Scripture never gives a mandate to marry. It never tells us that we all need to go out and get all the single men to get married. Never, not once. I am pro-marriage. I am just not pro-marriage mandate.

What really amazes me here is that, for all of your blustering, you have YET to provide any serious Scriptural support for your position. You mention it here and there but you don't concentrate on it. In fact when I try to drag this pointless discussion back to the Bible you say "get real" or call it "pius". I have to wonder what your authority is on this. Is it Scripture? Or is it personal or social concerns?

Unless you can/will provide a Biblical argument for your position I am done wasting my time here. Please outline the Biblical support for your position. Feel free to be long winded if you wish. If you are not willing/able to do that then don't bother replying to this.

2/22/07, 9:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone know if Martin has a job?

GH

2/23/07, 7:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>> There's no reason to think that there aren't just as many Christian women with boyfriends as there are guys with girlfriends, so your first reason pretty much cancels itself out. <<<

Well, then, in that case, what are YOU complaining about?

Bhuhahahahahahaha

I love your logic. This is too rich.

>>> Rather than bemoaning the lost past and blaming this current generation of young women who had nothing to do with those changes, <<<

Oh, crap, here it comes -- the "I didn't do it, and I'm not an accomplice nor accountable" routine. Please, this isn't Vaudeville. I didn't eat the fruit in the Garden Of Eden, so should I be held accountable for what Adam and Eve did?

Good grief.

- Ahem - I would think the Christian sisterhood (such as yourself) would make an effort to stem the tide of this "irrevocable" albatross round their neck, so that the next generation of Christian women could benefit. Instead, you do nothing but wash your hands, thinking only of yourself (and the "Maken Experience") while creating a continuous mountain of alibis.

Moreso, it (appears) as if you enjoy benefitting from what your secular sisters have done. Are you certain you're not shaking hands with Judas?

You know, every generation reaps the consequences of the previous one, "sins of the ancestors/ forefathers, etc., etc.". Perhaps, in the case of singleness, honey, it's YOUR time to do some reaping. Perhaps it was intended you stay alone for a greater purpose. It was "meant" to be. Besides, God has a way of separating the wheat from the chaff. Has it ever occurred to you that you might be chaff?

So cool your jets, mama. You sound bitter.

>>> it validates procrastination and passivity for almost anything, not just marriage. Finally, church leaders are starting to realize that the "passive Christian guy" thing is widespread, problematic <<<

They are? Re-a-ally?? Where??? Um, gee, (pssst) -- has it occurred to these "leaders" how the "meek shall inherit the Earth"? Oh, God, there is such an epidemic of "passive Christian guys". An epidemic, mind you, how will we survi-i-ive?

Lord, help us.

Maybe, as an alternative, little gurl, you need to rethink your philosophy on this subject.

Perhaps ... um ... perhaps, what you need is a secular "bad boy" to rehabilitate. Hey, now there's an idea!!! Consider this newly found project of yours as another, um, service in winning a soul for Christ.

Seriously, many Christian women are attracted to "projects" they can "fix," like some emotional nurse who can heal and rehabilitate tortured souls. Maybe this is your "calling".

Just a reminder, though: Don't make him ... (what's that word again?) ... "passive". Shhhhh. He'll become bor-ing, dull. Jeepers creepers, we couldn't have that, right? Heh. What a card, you are.

>>> those of you who can't even shoot fish in a barrel would do well to stop complaining and consult with guys who have successfully found a wife among their peers <<<

Gotta hand you some credit here. You just dug your claws in and scraped the hide off of us "meek" men.

One thing: Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of those "successful" guys in the Church who found a wife are "whipped"? Yeah. Really. Many of them are nothing but beta and gamma males, having their strings (in many instances) pulled by their wives. They are submissive to the belltones of their wives. I would be inclined to think that's what happened to Al Mohler.

Now, take the claws out, please

2/23/07, 7:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone know if Martin has a job?

==Yes Martin works all day at a University and attends graduate school (second MA) at night. Do you have a job?

2/23/07, 8:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have seen quite a few Christian men who work themselves to exhaustion 6 days a week. They are giving so much to their work simply to support a family.

The wives run the families and make the rules. They are "whipped" in that they are the beast of burden pulling the financial family cart.

Many single Christian women see the women married to these guys who work all the time. Those wives live like rock stars. They roll up in Lexus SUVs, redecorate the house every year and send the kids off to private school.

It seems so "right" to win a husband like those wives have. A guy who works so much he is never home, but he pays the bills and for luxuries galore. For a single Christian girl, it seems so unfair that she doesn't have the same situation.

Wouldn't it be nice to quit work? Wouldn't it be nice to stay home in luxury and watch Oprah? Perhaps spend 3 hours per day watching a child?

The Maken Experience is all about demanding the life of a wealthy dilettante housewife. In fairness, they are willing to sometimes give some emotional support and very rarely give sex, but the man who pays everything and is gone most of the time is the IDEAL. I've heard this directly from Christian women more than once.

After all, a man who doesn't fully support a family isn't being a good Christian husband and father.

The shortage of Christian men is really a shortage of high-salaried Christian single men with little or no baggage. I'd love to get married to a good Christian woman. Of course I only earn about $60,000. When I tell this financial fact to Christian single women, they react as if I just told them I was a Muslim. One can see the obvious disappointment.

Sheesh. At least I know I'll have lots of dates when my income breaks six figures.

I think we are all clear on the singleness problem now.

2/23/07, 3:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe it's not your income, it's your attitude.

2/23/07, 4:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My attitude?

Oh, thank you. I was so confused for so long. You have shown me the light!

2/23/07, 5:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I stated:
"Please outline the Biblical support for your position. Feel free to be long winded if you wish. If you are not willing/able to do that then don't bother replying to this."

==That was a day or so ago. The response? Nothing. I asked for a clear Biblical explanation of the marriage mandate doctrine and, instead, I've gotten silence. Should this tell me something? I am not sure really.

==========================

In connection with the release of the new movie "Amazing Grace" about William Wilberforce I have taken a break from my normal early American history reading lists to read a short biography on Wilberforce. I've read things about him before, haven taken Church History courses in seminary and everything, and I have long admired his accomplishments. However I have learned something very interesting about Wilberforce over the past day or so while reading this biography. Strange as it sounds, I think it relates to this blog.

Debbie Maken, and others, shame men for waiting until later in life to marry. Yet they rarely seem to consider what factors may lead a man to marry later. They usually assume it is immaturity and a lack of commitment and, many times, I suppose I would agree. However it is not true that such is true all of the time. In fact, in the case of many single Christian men, there are other reasons.

William Wilberforce was born in August on 1759 and was saved in the spring of 1785 (age 26). At the time he was serving in Parliament(from 1780). After he was saved he would spend the next eleven years, not seeking wife, but studying the Bible. Wilberforce would study for nine to ten hours a day, eating his breakfast alone in his room, and eating supper right before bed. He did marry, on May 30, 1797 (age 37), a woman (Barbara) who he had just met in April of 1797. After that "late" marriage he had four sons and two daughters. They remained married until his death (36 yrs later).

The point? William Wilberforce, after his salvation, would have been condemned by the marriage mandate crowd. Here he was, a Christian, a Member of Parliament, and he was passing 30! Worse yet, at least according to the marriage mandate doctrine, he spent the next eleven years doing nothing but studying! I can here the mandate folks now, "William, it's nice that you like to study the Bible a lot but you need to grow up, be a man, and get married". What they overlook, however, is that it was the result of his studying those eleven years that ended slavery in the British Empire (finally in 1833). Imagine if Wilberforce, like many singles today, spent his time chasing after a wife instead of doing what God had called him to do? Imagine how history would have been different? God did bring a wife to Wilberforce but, and this is what is sure to make the marriage mandate folks angry, he was 37 when God did that!!

Men like William Wilberforce show that not all single Christian men are losers who are just too lazy to grow up.

2/24/07, 3:21 PM  
Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...

Martin,

It seems that Candice Watters has put a marriage mandate spin on the Wilberforce story. :-S

Click here.

2/24/07, 8:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anakin Niceguy said...
It seems that Candice Watters has put a marriage mandate spin on the Wilberforce story.

___________________

Thanks for linking to that it was very interesting.

However, like you, I don't believe Wilberforce's story supports the marriage mandate doctrine:

First Wilberforce got married at 37 years of age (after being saved for 11 years). Maken, and the marriage mandate crowd, normally condemn men for waiting until their late 30s to marry.

Second Wilberforce, and here I am using Watters' own source, was doing nothing/little to change his single status. In fact he stated, "At age thirty-seven, he conjectured that his marital status would probably never change. "But I must not think of such matters now," he wrote, "it makes me feel my solitary state too sensibly". Notice that Wilberforce refused to think about the marriage issue since, it seems, it caused him to feel lonely. Again, however, let's note that Wilberforce was 37 at this point in time. The marriage mandate crowd, if they are consistent, should be frustrated that Wilberforce at the age of 37 had come to the conclusion that he would probably remain single and that he "must not think of such matters" at that time. The mandate crowd would call such sentiments whiny (or something like that).

Watters said:
"As he matured, he coupled his work with the stability and support that a wife and children can supply."

==Actually this contradicts the quote she gave. Even though he wished to marry, Wilberforce had given up on getting married. I also suspect, based on my reading of him, that he was very much mature at 33 and 35. Keep in mind this man was a Christian, who was getting personal help from none other than John Newton, was serving in parliament, and studied the Bible (alone) most days. This was not a man who was turning his life upside down looking for a wife. God brought her to him, through a friend, Wilberforce did not go out and find her.

I would also point out that I have never said singles should never date (etc). While I don't believe in social dating, if a person never goes out with people they will never meet anyone. If I recall correctly the stats say that most people meet their future spouse through friends/family anyway. So in this way Wilberforce is not unusual.

Watters said:
"If ever there was a single who could have claimed the gift of singleness for the purpose of serving wholeheartedly God's purpose on this earth, it was Wilberforce. But he didn't."

==He did not because he did not wish to. Again the very quote Watters' gave proves my point.

"But I must not think of such matters now," he wrote, "it makes me feel my solitary state too sensibly."

In other words Wilberforce was lonely. It was not that he believed in some sort of marriage mandate. Scripture is clear that marrying is not a sin.

Watters said:
"He also fulfilled the call to find a wife and be fruitful and multiply. His was a highly productive life both professionally and personally."

==Here, I believe, Watters' misunderstands Wilberforce. He was active and productive before he met his wife. It was before his salvation that said he was not productive. Second Watters' states that he "fulfilled the call to find a wife".

I wonder if Watters, or another marriage mandate supporter, could show me that call in Scripture?

In an earlier post here I asked for a clear Biblical explanation of the marriage mandate doctrine. So far the marriage mandate folks have grown silent. Should I conclude from this that their position does not stand on strong Biblical grounding? Or am I to conclude from this that, Scriptural or not, they just don't know how to Biblically defend their position?

Anyway, thanks for the link Anakin. Now I must hurry off to church (I'm running late now!).

Martin.

2/25/07, 5:13 AM  
Blogger Legion said...

"fulfilled his call to find a wife."

I'm having trouble finding this as well. I only have a KJV with me now, so maybe it's in one of the newer revised versions of the Bible. Perhaps it is in the MSBB - the Maken Shame Based Bible. =)

2/25/07, 11:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

I'm not going to sucked in by your insistence that I biblically "prove" that marriage is a command, on Maken's behalf, or my own, especially since this argument was never about that. It’s about two things: 1) that you erroneously claimed that individuals require “permission from God” in order to marry (you produced less biblical specifics than the “marriage mandate” position you claim is not biblically based), and 2) the falsehood of your whiny insistence that "the problem is that there are very few solid Christian women my age (early 30s) in the church", when in fact we KNOW that it's single church going men who are in short supply.

When presented with evidence of this shortage you cannot deny, you either blame the women for lack of quality (I was kind in not delving too deeply into the quality problems you see among the guys!) or toss out red herrings like claiming that many of them have boyfriends (as if there wouldn't be a per capita equivalent on the male side that would render this irrelevant as a factor that equals out any gender shortage). Or worse yet, respond to points that trump your position by making nonsense references, hoping that will to change the subject. This makes the discussion pointless.

Nevertheless, it’s hasn’t been all for naught, because it has provided a textbook example of the self-protective mechanisms inherent in the false theology of “gift of singleness”: the true, worldly reasons for staying single (ie. the women in my church aren’t attractive enough for me, there’s stuff I’d rather do such as get two MA’s) can be spun into a self-congratulatory tale of God-gifted singleness. Even if we were to conclude that Paul was saying to believers of all time that “a man should do as he wants” vis a vis marriage and singleness, you can hardly boast your single life as “God’s plan for me”, as if it’s not the consequence of choices made by you and others. And this is the problem with GoS theology: it circumvents any discussion of why singleness is increasing, and what the implications and outcomes will continue to be for the church.

2/25/07, 1:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

... And those implications and outcomes are explained in your verbal volleyball with Bethany at this link), correct?

2/25/07, 4:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said... 1:46 PM
"I'm not going to sucked in by your insistence that I biblically "prove" that marriage is a command, on Maken's behalf, or my own, especially since this argument was never about that."

==Well, with all due respect, if the Bible is not the source of the mandate then there is no mandate. If the "marriage mandate" cannot be proven from Scripture it is a non-starter.

_____________________

"It’s about two things: 1) that you erroneously claimed that individuals require “permission from God” in order to marry"

==I think you are either misrepresenting or misunderstanding my point. My point was simply that we should do nothing in our lives apart from seeking the Lord's guidance/approval first. This is certainly true in one of the most important decisions we will make on this side of eternity. To get married apart from God's guidance is, in my opinion, dangerous and just asking for disaster. I have provided several Scriptures to back up what I have said and, to be truthful, I could provide truck loads more. Point? The Bible is full of instruction on the fact that we should seek the Lord's guidance and wait for Him.

____________________

"2) the falsehood of your whiny insistence that "the problem is that there are very few solid Christian women my age (early 30s) in the church", when in fact we KNOW that it's single church going men who are in short supply."

==That is your opinion and I have shown why I don't agree with you.

_____________________

"I was kind in not delving too deeply into the quality problems you see among the guys!"

==I think Maken covered that one :)

______________________

"Nevertheless, it’s hasn’t been all for naught, because it has provided a textbook example of the self-protective mechanisms inherent in the false theology of “gift of singleness”

==Considering the fact that I don't believe in, nor have I defended, the idea that there is a "gift of singleness" I find your comment very, very interesting. I will even go so far as to say that I don't agree with Maken's gift of celibacy theory either. Scripture indicates that singleness/marriage is a choice that people must make for themselves (Matt 19:12, 1Cor 7:32-38). I directly stated this early on in our discussions:

"I have issues with the way some people, including Maken, describe singleness and/or celibacy as a "gift"." -7:26 AM

Have you been reading my posts or reading into my posts?

__________________________


"the true, worldly reasons for staying single ie. the women in my church aren’t attractive enough for me, there’s stuff I’d rather do such as get two MA’s"

==So its "worldly" for a man to say that many women are over-weight (etc) but it is not worldly for a woman to applaud someone for dumping a guy simply because she did not like his job?

Btw, I have said plainly that there are NO single women my age in my current church. I did attend a larger church (1,500) some years ago (I believe I left in '01). In that church there seemed to be an equal number of single men and women. Of the single women in my group there were none that I was "interested" in. That's not worldly that is just reality.

As for my second MA degree. Well, if I do get married my wife will be happy I have that degree. I promise that! If I don't ever get married, well, I will be glad. Either way my decision to return to graduate school was one I prayed about for over a year. You may not like my decision but I am happy that I am doing what I am suppose to be doing.

_____________________________

"Even if we were to conclude that Paul was saying to believers of all time that “a man should do as he wants” vis a vis marriage and singleness, you can hardly boast your single life as “God’s plan for me”, as if it’s not the consequence of choices made by you and others."

==I don't think I have ever said anything like that. Of course each person's singleness or marriage is a result of actions they have taken. Hopefully those actions have been taken prayerfully and carefully. However since none of us are sinless (1Jn 1:10) we must depend upon the Lord to get us where He wants us to be.

____________________________

"And this is the problem with GoS theology: it circumvents any discussion of why singleness is increasing,"

==You want to know why singleness is increasing? One major reason is that our society has become more isolated. People don't live in communities like they once did. Therefore people have fewer actual social connections though they may "talk" to more people thanks to phones and the internet (etc). This new sociological situation makes it harder for people to meet. There are other factors but that is a big one.

______________________

"and what the implications and outcomes will continue to be for the church."

==Well if singles would get their minds off themselves and start serving the Lord, the results could be great (1Cor 7:32-38).

Martin.

2/25/07, 4:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
... And those implications and outcomes are explained in your verbal volleyball with Bethany at this link), correct?

4:47 PM
________

Who?

2/25/07, 5:01 PM  
Blogger Jake said...

I don't believe that Bethany person is worth engaging on this issue. She's seems to be a liberal "Christian" primarily concerned with deconstructing "gender essentialism." Those of us who consider the Bible infallible at least in doctrine are standing on totally different ground from her.

2/26/07, 8:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The point, Jake, is that gortexgrrl, as detected through her writing style elsewhere, appears to be "anon 1:46". Actually, I think she's totally obsessed with the whole protracted singleness issue. Debbie Maken would be proud of her super heroics.

I will admit that she has some good points and kicked major butt over on Bethany's site.

2/26/07, 10:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think gortexgrrl and Captain Sensible are the most vocal on all the blogs that address singleness vs. marriage. In the discussions I've seen, it appears they find the words of Debbie Maken more important than anything in the Gospels.

I know it is very difficult to go through life alone, but Maken's message is hardly the holy message they seem to think it is.

2/26/07, 1:23 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Hey Everyone!

Ya, I know Captain Sensible's blog. The exegesis on that blog makes Debbie Maken look like a professional exegete.

I had a dialogue the author of one of the posts on that blog here:

http://www.boundlessline.org/2007/02/single_by_circu.html#comments

The author's name is "Jennifer," and her article is here:

http://thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com/2006/11/1-corinthians-7-6-9-and-gift-of.html

I didn't reply to her last post, because after she tried to say that Paul had broken his parallelism, [even though he used two contrasting statements right next to each other!!!!!!], I figured that is the end of the argument. If you can say that Paul is shifting his referents in mid sentence, then, there is not much more I can say to you.

However, I got the feeling that this girl didn't know Greek. I didn't want to bring it up during the discussion, because the discussion was supposed to be about the text. But she made some comments that my Greek teacher would never let me get away with. I mean, she made simple errors that would cause a first year Greek student to flunk. For instance, if you notice in her article, when she did the transliterations of the Greek words, all of the Greek words were put in their dictionary form! The actual Greek forms used by Paul were not given, leading me to believe she used some kind of Bible program which gave her the lexical transliteration of the words used in the passage.

Worse than that, she also did not know the simple rule in Greek grammar that a pronoun must agree with its anticedent in gender. I did get a chance to raise this during the discussion, and she acted as if she had never heard of such a rule.

She also thought that "houtō" [sic] was a pronoun. The fact that she didn't even transliterate it properly got me looking at the transliteration to see that she only used nominatives, but worse than that, houtō[s] is not a pronoun. It is an adverb. It comes from the same *root* as the demonstrative pronoun, but virtually any lexicon will tell you that the Greek term houtō[s] is an adverb. The pronouns used in 1 Corinthans 7:7 are relative pronouns.

However, [and, I promise, this is the last criticism], even the idea that these are relative pronouns is questionable because she is not even using a critical edition of the NT. She appears to be using either the Majority Text or the Textus Receptus. While Papyrus 46 does have the reading of the relative pronoun, only the second hand of Siniaticus, manuscript psi, and the majority of Byzantine manuscripts [the reason why I suspect she is using the majority text] give that reading. All critical editions of the NT I am aware of give the article as the proper reading. This is because of the vast variety of early witnesses in the Alexandrian, Western, and Byzantine traditions which support the reading of the definite article. Of course, even the article has to agree with its anticedent in gender, so, she still doesn't get off the hook, even if that is the correct reading.

Again, I don't want to say that she definitely doesn't know Greek, but, given the errors I discribed above, it at least raises a question in my mind as to whether she does know it.

Anyway, with those kinds of errors, it is amazing that "Captain Sensible" would publish that article. I guess all it shows is that these people are fanatics, and anything used to bash anyone who would dare criticize their position, no matter how unscholarly, is going to be used.

Anyway, as I skimmed that blog, I found things that were just as bad. As I said, the exegesis found on that blog makes Debbie Maken look like a professional exegete.

God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist

2/26/07, 5:35 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Uhhhh, the link to the discussion posted incomplete for some reason. Let's try this again:

http://www.boundlessline.org/2007/02/single_by_circu.html#comments

God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist

2/26/07, 5:39 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2/26/07, 5:41 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Nope, not working. Just go to the Febuary 5, 2007 blog article on the Boundless weblog entitled "Single by Circumstance," and scroll down to the comments section. Our discussion is towards the end.

God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist

2/26/07, 5:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PC said:

"I didn't reply to her last post, because after she tried to say that Paul had broken his parallelism, [even though he used two contrasting statements right next to each other!!!!!!], I figured that is the end of the argument. If you can say that Paul is shifting his referents in mid sentence, then, there is not much more I can say to you."

I didn't say that Paul is shifting his referents in mid-sentence. He shifts his referent in the NEXT sentence, off himself and onto others.

PC also said: "She also thought that "houtō" [sic] was a pronoun.".

Nowhere did I say that houto is a pronoun. "HOS" is the pronoun. I dealt with that in my last post.

You guys can knock Capt. Sensible's blog all you want. At least she's actually providing practical assistance to single people in the way of posting events, including fun social stuff. More that you can say about this pity party.

Jennifer

2/26/07, 6:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jennifer said:
"At least she's actually providing practical assistance to single people"

==If it's not Biblical it is not good practical advice.

The debate sparked by Maken's book is why people in the modern church need to get "back to the Bible". Maken's book needs to be judged by Scripture alone. Not by sociology, not by history, but by the Bible. If what she is saying does not match Scripture then nothing else matters.

I believe it is time for the Maken crowd to stand up and give a "solid" Biblical defense of their position or to pack their bags and go home. I have asked several times on this very blog for anyone who holds the "marriage mandate" doctrine to present a solid Biblical case for it. So far there have been no takers.

Martin.

2/26/07, 7:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Maken's book needs to be judged by Scripture alone. Not by sociology, not by history, but by the Bible. If what she is saying does not match Scripture then nothing else matters."

Amen, and Amen!

Still, I'm not unsympathetic to the situation of these women. Most of them are 40 or over and took a "wait on the Lord" approach to marriage for 20 years. Some of these women felt it was sinful to even acknowledge a man's greeting or accept a dinner date.

I know this may hurt to hear, but men aren't coming back to the church in appreciable numbers. There are a few devout men who will always attend, but the real reason we are discussing this singleness nonsense is because the Church is simply too feminine these days. Ergo, popular Christian teachings on dating will favor what women want to hear - even if it is too old fashioned (McCulley) or downright stupid and un-Scriptural (Maken).

2/26/07, 8:14 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Jennifer,

Nowhere did I say that houto is a pronoun. "HOS" is the pronoun. I dealt with that in my last post.


I apologize. I didn't state your error properly. I has been a while since our discussion. Here is what you said:

The referrent doesn't have to be "charisma" per se, but "the way" (houto) in which "one" (there's your masc.pronoun) is gifted.

What you did is assume that the referent is "the way in which one is gifted." However, if you say that, then hos would have to agree with "the way." However, "the way" is an adverb. Hence, the anticedent *cannot* grammatically be "the way in which one is gifted" because adverbs do not have gender. The referent would simply be "each [one]," (which is exactly what I was trying to say), not "the way each one is gifted." To be honest, that mistake is not a whole lot better than mistaking a pronoun for an adverb.

I didn't say that Paul is shifting his referents in mid-sentence. He shifts his referent in the NEXT sentence, off himself and onto others.

1 Corinthians 7:7 is one sentence. Period. It is not two sentences. It is made up of a main clause, and a subordinate clause, each with a contrast. Again, I cannot help you if you cannot see this, as it is something you learn in first year Greek.

However, you also somehow want to say that the language of the first clause is contrasting Paul, and those who do not have his gift, but yet not the second clause????????? Jennifer, that is simply nonsense. To say that Paul has taken the reference off of himself when the two contrasts are perfectly parallel, and sitting right next to each other is really nothing more than special pleading. You have to give us some exegetical reason for why he is doing this right in the middle of a sentence. That is what I mean when you introduce a break right in the middle of the sentence.

As I said, there is not much I can tell you if that is your position. This is something you would not allow anyone to get away with on an issue such as the deity of Christ or salvation! The fact that you are doing it here shows me that this is not a view that is coming from the Bible, but it is being forced onto the text because you don't like what the text says.

Finally, left unaddressed were your writing all of the dictionary forms of the words down [rather then the actual Greek of the passage], and your use of the majority text when the vast majority of scholars use the Nestle-Aland or UBS-4 text.

With all of these mistakes, I will certainly state that a person must be very biased to post this kind of an article, and hence, as I said, the exegesis on that blog [or lack thereof] is so bad that it makes Debbie Maken look like a professional exegete.

2/26/07, 8:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin said:

"I believe it is time for the Maken crowd to stand up and give a "solid" Biblical defense of their position or to pack their bags and go home. I have asked several times on this very blog for anyone who holds the "marriage mandate" doctrine to present a solid Biblical case for it. So far there have been no takers."

The scriptural support provided by Maken has been dismissed as "descriptive" and not "prescriptive" or too "OT". But then again, you could write off the entire environmental movement for that same reason. But is it a sin to pollute the planet? You bet it is. Does that make driving a sin? Well one little Honda alone doesn't hurt anyone, but at some level, it probably is a sin to be part of something that destroys what God has created--or fails to be a part of something that sustains creation. So it comes down to whether or not our choices, individually and collectively, spell life or death to God's people.

Perhaps the Bible doesn't address environmental issues much because no one at that point in history could Biblical writers envision the technology that human beings would use to destroy the planet (perhaps some of the bizarre imagery of Revelations??). Likewise for other technologies like birth control (no, I'm not speaking against it here) and other modern developments that have made mass protracted singleness possible. Without the modern constructions that have blunted the physical imperative to marry, ancient biblical writers would have found the notion of "commanding" people to marry absurdly unnecessary. Why would they have even addressed it? "Better to marry than to burn" would have been plenty, so why use cannonballs to shoot sparrows, just because a few of us in the future had a few more things destracting us?

But ask yourself honestly: how do you think those biblical writers would REALLY view today's trends of widespread protracted singleness among Christians? And don't just cop out and say "I dunno", it's not up to us, blah, blah...Does it spell "life" or "death" to God's people, because that is the measure of our obedience to His ways.

So whether it's driving a car or not fulfilling our procreative potential, ultimately we don't know how God will judge us, especially since neither is identified in any specific verse as a sin in the Bible. Although greater minds than mine could probably detect the thematic pieces in the Bible that point to the big picture of how we sow the seeds to our own doom through every modern construction.

2/26/07, 9:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PC,

"What you did is assume that the referent is "the way in which one is gifted." However, if you say that, then hos would have to agree with "the way." However, "the way" is an adverb. Hence, the anticedent *cannot* grammatically be "the way in which one is gifted" because adverbs do not have gender."

Oh, tell me what I assume...look, I'm not translating "houto" to literally mean "the way", of course that would make it a noun, but that is still the right idea. I understand houto to mean "like this", as in the French "comme ci", also an adverb. So one (hos) "goes like this" and (another) one "goes like that", as per whatever gift "one" would have.

"you also somehow want to say that the language of the first clause is contrasting Paul, and those who do not have his gift, but yet not the second clause????????? Jennifer, that is simply nonsense...special pleading,,," First of all, PC, you're about to make me puke with your dramatics. Secondly, I did not say that the language of the first clause is "contrasting" Paul, it's not contrasting anything. It's like saying "I wish everyone could be like dramatic old me, however, each possesses their own gift from God, one guy athletically, one academically, one musically...you've moved the focus off yourself and onto "each" or "everyone":comparing how each of these hypothetical guys may be hypothetically gifted.

Besides, what difference does it any of this make as far as defending your "bias" towards "the gift of singleness"??

J

2/26/07, 11:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Debates over interpretations of scripture aren't what is upsetting the Makenites.

I have had extensive conversations with many of the Makenites. I even dated a Makenite for a time. All I can say is that there is a reason these women are single. They are either too picky, too intolerant or too impatient.

We're not talking about a large number of women, either. The few vocal single women on these discussion blogs aren't representative of most Christian single women.

To the guys here: don't date a Makenite. I've been there, done that. If you don't move toward marriage very quickly, she'll walk away. Ironic, isn't it? Only the women most desperate for marriage are buying into Maken's unscriptural nonsense; yet it is the one message that will keep the men away, or rush the courtship so much that men won't feel comfortable.

2/27/07, 4:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Debbie Maken does not present "solid" Biblical arguments for her position. She does some "proof-texting" but she does not get into the meat of the text. In fact there are more than a few times that she takes a Scripture out of context and tries to force into it a meaning that it does not naturally have. I am looking for a marriage mandate person who can defend their position with solid Biblical arguments.

______________________________


Anonymous said...9:49 PM
"But ask yourself honestly: how do you think those biblical writers would REALLY view today's trends of widespread protracted singleness among Christians?"

==I don't think Paul, for example, would take such a broad brush view. I think he would be interested in the individual "reasons". I am certain he would be critical of those singles who are delaying marriage simply because they don't want to grow up. However I am also certain that, like in 1Corinthians 7, he would tell many singles that it is good for them to remain single.

I don't believe Paul would side with Maken and the marriage mandate crowd. I think his approach would be much more balanced. How do I reach that conclusion? By reading 1Corinthians 7.

______________________

"Does it spell "life" or "death" to God's people, because that is the measure of our obedience to His ways."

==The church grows because of evangelism and not because of birth rates. Sadly today many children raised in the church walk away from the Church and Jesus while in college. So, from this perspective, what bothers me is the lack of evangelism and not large numbers of singles.

__________________________

"So whether it's driving a car or not fulfilling our procreative potential"

==Every creature God created has "procreative potential". However that does not mean it is God's command that every creature procreate. There is plenty of Biblical evidence that God does not condemn someone just for being single. Marriage is not a command it is a option. Singleness is not a command it is a option.

Part of the problem here, I think, is people turning their personal preferences into commands. That borders on legalism. I don't care if it is the marriage mandate doctrine, King James Onlyism, or some form of legalism about music in the church. When we start making our personal preferences into commands we are, in a very real sense, on very thin ice. I understand that many Christian singles, mainly women singles, hate their situation. However that is no justification for creating a doctrine that Scripture simply does not teach.

___________________________

"ultimately we don't know how God will judge us"

==Scripture tells us what we "need" to know and there is no Scripture that says people will be judged "simply" for being single.

Martin.

2/27/07, 5:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PC,

You once wrote in a previous comment section:

>>> Of course, I wonder how nasty Debbie Maken would be if she had to defend her position in public with someone who really knows the issue. That is why the internet is such a tough place. Ordinary people can spue out acid, and they don't have to be accountable for it because they are hiding behind their keyboard. That is what was so frustrating about my dialogue with Debbie Maken. I kept on bringing things up, and she kept skirting them. Many times she would bring up an objection, and I would proceed to answer it, but she would never give me a rejoinder in the next post. She did this to Andreas Kostenberger as well [as he noted in his last response to her].

Of course, if you are in a public setting, you can't do that. The person will stop you, refocus the question, and then say, "now will you address this?" It will be interesting to see if Debbie Maken does a public debate on this topic. <<<

I agree, but I personally don't think a public debate is ever going to happen. I think male Christian leadership is too scared of Debbie Maken to pose any threat to her opinions.

Case in point: This article written by Radio talk show host Paul Dean. He writes:

"However, I must point out that in all honesty, I cannot agree with all she says, and thus my little multi-part article on the issue is posted here. Let me say again how much I appreciate her message and willingness to be on our program. I appreciate her zeal and willingness to take a tough stand for Christ. Because of such, we hope to have her on the program again. At the same time, in light of the fact that we allowed her to present her view practically uncontested, I must offer this response with the hope that further dialogue will be fostered."

Now why do you think Mr. Dean allowed Debbie Maken to go uncontested on his show if he disagrees with her? Why couldn't he challenge her views face-to-face on the air? My guess, if one looks underneath the hood, is that Mrs. Maken agreed to come on the air with the condition that she go unchallenged?

Any opinions?

2/27/07, 9:43 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon 9:49 wrote:
--------------------------
Without the modern constructions that have blunted the physical imperative to marry, ancient biblical writers would have found the notion of "commanding" people to marry absurdly unnecessary. Why would they have even addressed it?
--------------------------
So now you're appealing to OT/Jewish cultural norms to support your case? I suppose if there isn't Scriptural support, you have to grasp at whatever you can.

Using this reasoning, why did God bother with some of the 10 Commandments? After all, it's rather obvious that you shouldn't have a fling with your neighbor's wife, steal his donkey or kill him. Would not the ancients have found the notion of such commands absurdly unnecessary?

This is all very shaky ground upon which to base a doctrine; especially one as essential as Maken claims the 'marriage mandate' to be.

I wonder; which other OT/Jewish cultural norms should we adopt as commandments?

2/27/07, 9:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jennifer, you said:

Besides, what difference does it any of this make as far as defending your "bias" towards "the gift of singleness"??

... And what of defending your "bias" towards the "marriage mandate"?


More that you can say about this pity party.

Psychological projection and transference will go you nowhere. I don't think there's anyone around this blog that feels sorry for themselves. The real sorrow is for you.

2/27/07, 10:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

New Testament scholar, and professor at Asbury Theological Seminary, Dr Ben Witherington, has made some very interesting comments that "relate" to the marriage mandate doctrine. I advise everyone to chew on his article and not to respond too quickly. I am not going to copy/paste the entire article here but I will provide a link.

In part he states:
"Jesus, followed by Paul, are perfectly clear that in light of the eschatological situation, it is no longer required, even of Jews, that they marry. The creation order mandate--- "be fruitful and multiple" (and the obligation to marry that goes with it) must now be seen as a blessed option, not an obligation for all of God's people. Now instead, as Paul puts it both getting married or remaining single need to be seen as a calling from God. One has to have the 'charisma' the grace gift, to properly undertake either state of being (see 1 Cor. 7)"

And...


"This is a key point for the church today. Until we recover the proper teaching about singleness, and its goodness in Christ, and stop pressuring anyone and everyone in the church to get married, we have no business pontificating about marriage and its blessings. Too often, single persons in the church are simply viewed as 'candidates for dating and marriage' (never mind that the Bible says nothing at all about dating, or late Western notions about romance and courting). This is a trainwreck waiting to happen, and the result is many persons are pressured into marriage who are neither ready, nor have the grace gift to be in a marriage relationship. This in turn leads to numerous divorces-- and the endless cycle of matrimony, acrimony, and alimony receives another push."

And...

"In fact, I would stress that a lot of Christian persons have raced into marriage ceremonies without really seeking out the spiritual basis for what they are doing, without really asking, Is God leading us together? Even Christians are capable of coupling themselves together, just as non-Christians do, without the permission, guidance, or blessing of God. If God has not joined them together, or if they are not prepared to submit their relationship to God after the fact and beseech God so he will indeed join and bless their togetherness, then they do not meet either the pre-requisites for what Jesus and Paul say about marriage, or the pre-requisites for what they say about divorce.

Christian marriage is a high and holy state."

Some very interesting remarks indeed. I am not saying I agree with every single point but I do agree with his over-all position.

Here is the link so you can examine the whole article:

http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2005/09/jesus-and-paul-on-singlenessmarriage.html


Martin.

2/27/07, 11:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just to off-set a predictable response by some, Witherington is not offering the typical "gift of singleness" ideas. He seems to be refering to the fact, found in 1Cor 7, that God gifts people to remain where He wants them. If a believer is single God will give them the ability to remain pure (if they are following Him, of course).

Martin.

2/27/07, 11:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

"'But ask yourself honestly: how do you think those biblical writers would REALLY view today's trends of widespread protracted singleness among Christians?'==I don't think Paul, for example, would take such a broad brush view. I think he would be interested in the individual 'reasons'".

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. But somehow I doubt that Paul would "buy it" that the vast majority of singles of today are really, honestly, staying single for the holy "1 Cor 7" reasons that they claim. He would see the pickyness of both sexes and judge that as worldly. I would guess that he would also have compassion for the fact that it is harder, especially nowadays, for some people to find mates than others. Maken also acknowledges this.

"The church grows because of evangelism and not because of birth rates. Sadly today many children raised in the church walk away from the Church and Jesus while in college" What's at college? Worldly temptations that encourage singleness more than family life, which used to be almost "built-in" to community life, after coming of age. Most people who are Christians today because they were born into the church. Evangelism brings in the quality (the energizing and mobilizing power of newfound faith), families increase the quantity (especially in the west). One cannot exist without the other, as far as sustaining the body of Christ in the world.

"There is plenty of Biblical evidence that God does not condemn someone just for being single. Marriage is not a command it is a option. Singleness is not a command it is a option." You're repeating yourself here, let's not go back to the "no verse calls it a command" thing, since, to my credit, I have never called it a command. I think our differences here are more a matter of degree than anything else. As for scripture telling us what we need to know, we've already gone over those parts that you guys have written off as "descriptive, not presciptive". It's a lot of easier to simply not do something simply because you haven't been told directly enough-- I think the Catholics call that "sins of omission". God will judge us reasons for the actions we take or don't take in our lives, as to whether or not they truly glorify Him. Seeing into our hearts, He will judge our motives as well.

J

2/27/07, 11:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see some of the marriage-mandate folks found his remarks long before I did. Ha, ha!

One of them even said:
"Regardless of whether or not singleness is a sin, it's certainly isn't gift"

==That is an amazing statement considering that Jesus, Paul, and others were not married. That fact alone should be enough to prove to everyone that singleness is "NOT" a sin.

That remark is even more amazing because what Paul says when talking to those who are not married (1Cor 7:7)

"Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that."

While I don't believe that this verse supports the popular "gift of singleness" notions, or Maken's gift of celibacy, it does show that there is some gift or Divine help for believers who choose to remain single.

Regardless of what one things about the "large" number of singles in the church today the fact that singleness is not a sin should never be questioned.

Martin.

2/27/07, 11:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Witherington's ideas were posted before the big "rethinking the gift of singleness" boom that happened on Boundless last year. It would be interesting to see if his view have changed in light of the renewed discussion on 1 Cor 7.

2/27/07, 11:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Honestly I doubt he has changed his view. Witherington is a fairly consistant scholar. He is not likely to change his mind on something like this without a very, very good reason.

Martin.

2/27/07, 12:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Quick addition:

Witherington stated the following on his blog (February 15, 2007):

"The term 'eunuch' here whether taken literally (as in a castrated person who is incapable of normal sexual intercourse), or simply morally (as in a person who never engages in sexual intercourse, remaining celibate in singleness, though he or she is capable of such an act), makes very evident that for single persons, any single persons, celibacy in singleness is the standard Jesus holds up for the unmarried.

Nor, in view of the way Jesus talks about marriage in the context with the discussion of the original Genesis story about the creation order-- the creation of woman for man (and their interdependency), could one ever imagine Jesus redefining marriage to include same-sex sexual partners. Jesus is not silent on such matters at all-- fidelity in marriage and celibacy in singleness are his standards, and indeed they are standards by which Jesus himself lived when we are thinking about the celibacy in singleness issue. He is likely talking about himself when he speaks of persons who have chosen to be eunuchs for the Kingdom. Chastity was considered a great virtue in that honor and shame culture."

So it does not sound like he has changed his position due to any "rethinking the gift of singleness" that has occured in some corners.

http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2007/02/rob-bell-hits-lexington-and-packed-out.html

Martin

2/27/07, 12:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am amazed by how much Martin writes here.

Dude, if you have a job, you are doing a serious disservice to your employer.

If you don't have a job, more power to ya.

GH

2/27/07, 1:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm glad Martin posts a lot. He has shown me a lot of things in scripture I didn't recall.

2/27/07, 5:02 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Jennifer,

Quick response, because I have a mountain of work to do for tomorrow.

Your analogy doesn't work because the two sections of your analogy are not parallel. I assumed you would know that the first half is parallel, because Paul uses the strong adversive "alla."

Anyway, the parallelism is as follows:

+ Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am
- However, each man has his own gift from God,
+ one in this manner,
- and another in that.

In other words, the structure of the passage has a contrast put right before the phrase "the one in this manner, and the other in that." Therefore, the + phrases are related, and the - phrases are related. This is what you are ignoring. Both contrasts are important to see.

Therefore, if you take the text as you interpret it, there is no way to explain the parallelism.

God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist

2/27/07, 8:49 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

BTW, Jennifer, I do need to correct something. I was having some issues with Bibleworks the other day, and I did make a mistake. I misread the text, and you were right about there being two sentences there. I just saw the raised period after emauton. I was looking between theou and ho the first time, and didn't see the first mark.

However, again, there is still and adversive at the beginning of the second sentence. That means that it has an adversive relationship to the previous sentence, and hence, is still creating a contrast.

God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist

2/27/07, 9:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...GH 1:15 PM

"I am amazed by how much Martin writes here."

==If you look you will see that most of what I posted yesterday was cut/paste (it is in quotes) from Witherington's blog. So I did not really type that much.


"Dude, if you have a job, you are doing a serious disservice to your employer."

==There is such things as breaks you know (???). Also my job is not exactly what you would call "busy" and we are allowed to be on the web during down times.

Thanks for your concern!

Martin.

2/28/07, 9:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PC,

Those are cute plus and minus signs, but they still don't prove that Paul was refering back to himself when he said either the first or the second "hos...houto", both of which are so indefinite, so non-specific that it just excruciatingly obvious that he's talking in hypothetical terms about how we all gifted differently. Say these verses three times fast:

6Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.

7I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

8To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.

9But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

The whole point of the passage is to state what's permissive/advisable in regards to marriage and singleness, as stated in verses 8 and 9. In the grand scheme of things, verse 7 is really of very little consequence. If anything, it (along with verse 6) is a preamble to verses 8 and 9. One where Paul admits the limitations of what he's saying, confesses his bias which he tempers by conceding that we are different. It's a roundabout way of saying, "I'd like everyone to be like me, but we're all different, so in light of those differences, here's what's allowable."

To think of all the damage caused by people reading too much into verse 7! Everything from the sexual abuse scandals that have resulted from Catholics interpreting this to mean that their priests have "the gift of celibacy"....all the way to people like Witherington saying things like "Paul puts it both getting married or remaining single need to be seen as a calling from God. One has to have the 'charisma' the grace gift, to properly undertake either state of being", leading many who think that because they are having trouble relating to the opposite sex that they just aren't "gifted" for marriage, that this must mean they are "called" to singleness, as if that's God's "gift" to them.

This is nothing less than spiritual abuse. And it's for those people I speak out. Not because I want to declare a "command" to marry or denounce all singleness as "sin".

2/28/07, 6:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

I'm not sure why you chose that Witherington link about "eunuchs" for an argument against "marriage mandate". Other than the fact that it's about no sex without marriage (which no one here seems to be arguing against), it actually has Witherington saying the exact thing that Maken says:

"it is no surprise then that we find Jesus telling his disciples in Mt. 19 that they have only two legitimate options: 1) marital fidelity (with marriage being defined as a relationship between one man and one woman joined together by God which leads to a one flesh union), or 2) being a eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom.

"Only two LEGITIMATE" options".

2/28/07, 7:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"it actually has Witherington saying the exact thing that Maken says...Only two LEGITIMATE" options".

==Considering "all" of Witherington's statements (in both blogs) it hardly seems that he would agree with Maken at all.

For example:
"it is no longer required, even of Jews, that they marry. The creation order mandate--- "be fruitful and multiple" (and the obligation to marry that goes with it) must now be seen as a blessed option, not an obligation for all of God's people. Now instead, as Paul puts it both getting married or remaining single need to be seen as a calling from God."

I could quote others but the point is very clear that Witherington does not agree with Maken.

Of course there are only two legitimate options for a believer. Witherington makes it perfectly clear, and I fully agree with him, that it is "very evident that for single persons, any single persons, celibacy in singleness is the standard Jesus holds up for the unmarried".

Witherington actually agrees with earlier comments I made when he says:

"Even Christians are capable of coupling themselves together, just as non-Christians do, without the permission, guidance, or blessing of God. If God has not joined them together, or if they are not prepared to submit their relationship to God after the fact and beseech God so he will indeed join and bless their togetherness, then they do not meet either the pre-requisites for what Jesus and Paul say about marriage, or the pre-requisites for what they say about divorce."

And to close this post, with final proof that Witherington does not agree with Maken, I would quote what he says about singles in the church and the pressure on them to marry:

"Until we recover the proper teaching about singleness, and its goodness in Christ, and stop pressuring anyone and everyone in the church to get married, we have no business pontificating about marriage and its blessings. Too often, single persons in the church are simply viewed as 'candidates for dating and marriage' (never mind that the Bible says nothing at all about dating, or late Western notions about romance and courting). This is a trainwreck waiting to happen, and the result is many persons are pressured into marriage who are neither ready, nor have the grace gift to be in a marriage relationship."

Is that clear?

I hope so.

Martin.

3/1/07, 6:18 AM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Anon 9:43AM,

I agree with what you said. The problem is that most Christian leaders today don't have the background needed to deal with Debbie Maken. As I said, you can see that when I dialogued with her, and when Andreas Kostenburger dialogued with her, she had to skirt several things, and be very selective in what she addressed.

I have always described Debbie Maken as being like a bully. She goes up against twenty somethings with things like buisness degrees, pastors, and Christian radio hosts who do not have the background to challange her claims. However, she becomes very selective, and evasive when she knows she is dialoguing with someone who knows the topic.

The only problem is that most people who are college students studying this area such as myself are not that famious, and most professionals such as Andreas Kostenberger are extremely busy, and, in some cases, also not that popular. Therefore, most people do not know how incredibly bad this stuff is.

I am actually trying to write a book in response to Debbie Maken, but I also have been having around seven translation assignments a week, and a recital to get ready for the second week of May [I am a double major]. I see some things on her blog and in her book to which I have responded on my blog. However, again, we have to let people know that there are responses to this stuff so they do not get sucked into it.

God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist

3/1/07, 5:23 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Jennifer,

You said:
Those are cute plus and minus signs, but they still don't prove that Paul was refering back to himself when he said either the first or the second "hos...houto [sic]", both of which are so indefinite, so non-specific that it just excruciatingly obvious that he's talking in hypothetical terms about how we all gifted differently. Say these verses three times fast:

6Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.

7I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

8To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.

9But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.


First of all, the phrase "ho men houtos, ho de houtos" does not, is not, in and of itself, indefinite. You may not know this, but there are two other instances in Greek literature where this phrase is found, one of them is indefinite, and the other is not. Here is the one that is definite. It is from Claudius Ptolemaeus' Apotelesmatica 1.4.3. It is in the context of discriptive astronomy about the position of the star of Cronus in relation to the sun and the moon:

And the star of Cronus has more quality when the temperature is cold, and when it is slightly dry during cold weather. Likewise, It seems to be far at the same time the sun is hot, and the vapor is on the moist ground. They [the sun and moon] have power over this star, and the other stars, and through these observations in the appearances of the sun and the moon, some in this way, some in the other way, they seem to direct the appointment of what surrounds to a greater or lesser degree [Translation mine. Translated from Thesarus Linguae Graece].

Notice that, in this instance, it would be foolish to say that the appearances of the sun and the moon were indefinite in number, as he refers us back to the discussion he has just had regarding the control the sun and the moon have over their environment. [yes, Claudius Ptolemaeus was a geocentrist]. Hence, because he refers back to the discussion he has already given, he is not speaking of an indefinite number of observances.

Hence, we can conclude that the usage of the phrase "ho men houtos, ho de houtos" does not necessarily carry the connotation of talking about indefinite methods.

You said:
The whole point of the passage is to state what's permissive/advisable in regards to marriage and singleness, as stated in verses 8 and 9. In the grand scheme of things, verse 7 is really of very little consequence. If anything, it (along with verse 6) is a preamble to verses 8 and 9. One where Paul admits the limitations of what he's saying, confesses his bias which he tempers by conceding that we are different. It's a roundabout way of saying, "I'd like everyone to be like me, but we're all different, so in light of those differences, here's what's allowable."

The problem is, first of all, that you cannot view verses 6-9 as a unit, since, as I already indicated, Paul has moved on to a new topic in verses 8-9. He addresses married people in verses 1-5, then addresses status individually in verses 6-7, and then talks to widows and widowers in verses 8-9. Hence, you still have to deal with "Those...cute plus and minus signs," because they point out a parallel contrast in the text. [BTW, as a side note, that is a common way in which exegetes demonstrate contrast. I have John Piper's doctoral dissertation sitting in front of me, and he does that all of the time]

To think of all the damage caused by people reading too much into verse 7! Everything from the sexual abuse scandals that have resulted from Catholics interpreting this to mean that their priests have "the gift of celibacy"....all the way to people like Witherington saying things like "Paul puts it both getting married or remaining single need to be seen as a calling from God. One has to have the 'charisma' the grace gift, to properly undertake either state of being", leading many who think that because they are having trouble relating to the opposite sex that they just aren't "gifted" for marriage, that this must mean they are "called" to singleness, as if that's God's "gift" to them.

This is nothing less than spiritual abuse. And it's for those people I speak out. Not because I want to declare a "command" to marry or denounce all singleness as "sin".


Again, Jennifer, as I told you before, you are interpreting the scriptures by what you think is right, rather then allowing the scriptures to define what is right. If this is the case, then this is another reason you cannot do exegesis, because part of exegesis is letting the text speak. As I said before, you just don't like what the text says, and you want to find some way around it so that you don't have to deal with the "abuse."

As far as the abuses you brought up, they are not in relation to what the gift is, but in relation to what Paul meant when he called them a gift. For instance, with regards to Roman Catholicism, you will find nowhere in that passage where the apostle Paul says that the gift here is conveyed to some kind of celebate, sacramental priesthood. Clergy are not even mentioned. That is a total eisegetical assertion that is based in Roman Catholic tradition more than it is based on the Bible.

Second, what people thing Witherington said, and what he actually said are two different things. Notice what he said

Now instead, as Paul puts it both getting married or remaining single need to be seen as a calling from God. One has to have the 'charisma' the grace gift, to properly undertake either state of being (see 1 Cor. 7)"

Notice what he is saying. He is talking about our state of being, which is perfectly consistent with the usage of einai [to be, exist] in verse 7. If I can tap into his brain to understand what he is saying, it is that, no matter what section of life you are in, whether single or married, it is a gift from God, and hence, no one should look down those who are single or married, because God has ordained that they be single or married at this particular time for a specific purpose. Hence, how is this in any way implying that "because they are having trouble relating to the opposite sex that they just aren't "gifted" for marriage, that this must mean they are "called" to singleness, as if that's God's "gift" to them?" What he is saying is that, whether single or married, God is using your singleness or your marriage for his glory.

You see, the abuses come, not so much from saying that singleness is the gift, but from other people's misinterpretation of what it means to say that singleness is a gift, and people's misinterpretation of scholars when they say singleness is a gift. I might also note the abuses to which Witherington is referring in his post have already taken root in the mandatory marriage movement, as Debbie Maken has said publically, and in her book, that men who are bachelors should be shamed. So, in an effort to protect from one abuse, you create another. As a result the movement relies on spurious, and at times, laughable interpretation of the scriptures to shame people all because you don't want to acknowledge what this passage says, simply because you are afraid of other abuses.

Again, I know it is hard, but you have to let the scriptures speak for themselves, and not read it through the lens of abuses, or through the lens of Debbie Maken, or even through the lens of myself. The scriptures must be able to speak on their own, because only then can they function as our sole infallible rule of faith.

God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist

3/1/07, 7:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"First of all, the phrase "ho men houtos, ho de houtos" does not, is not, in and of itself, indefinite. You may not know this, but there are two other instances in Greek literature where this phrase is found, one of them is indefinite, and the other is not." Fine. You're still stuck with decades of theologians debating about what's the gift, singleness or celibacy?

"you cannot view verses 6-9 as a unit, since, as I already indicated, Paul has moved on to a new topic in verses 8-9." Most scholars do treat 6-9 as a unit (some leave out verse 6, suggesting that it may be referring to married people, but that would throw verse 10 out of balance where he gives instructions to married people, "not I but the Lord" (opposite of verse 6).

As for the theory that verses 8 and 9 are about widows only, we've already discussed that elsewhere, so I don't see the point in going back over that, esp. since that's another disputed theory.

"you still have to deal with "Those...cute plus and minus signs," because they point out a parallel contrast in the text." That's your opinion, and what JP has done with other passages is irrelevant.

"Again, Jennifer, as I told you before, you are interpreting the scriptures by what you think is right, rather then allowing the scriptures to define what is right." First of all, I don't appreciate you making interpretations about my motives this way, especially since the last time you said this, you completely screwed up what I was saying. I could just as easily say the same thing to you. Some scholars, lean toward "gift of singleness", others lean towards "gift of celibacy", some like Kiwoong Son think it's neither (and I agree with him, although if I had to guess, I'd say celibacy, since historically that's been the more favored interpretation). You, on the other hand, make it sound like a "slam dunk" for GoS, because that's what you think is right, isn't it?

"'Now instead, as Paul puts it both getting married or remaining single need to be seen as a calling from God. One has to have the 'charisma' the grace gift, to properly undertake either state of being (see 1 Cor. 7)' Notice what he is saying. He is talking about our state of being, which is perfectly consistent with the usage of einai [to be, exist] in verse 7". If this is what BW is saying, then "the gift" isn't the "state of being", but the ENABLEMENT to undertake that state of being, most likely "sexual containment" as per verses 5 and 9". As for having a "charisma" for marriage, nowhere in the Bible is marriage treated as a "charisma", if anything verse 9 treats it as what you do if you DON'T have that "charisma"!

"You see, the abuses come, not so much from saying that singleness is the gift, but from other people's misinterpretation of what it means to say that singleness is a gift, and people's misinterpretation of scholars when they say singleness is a gift". "You see,"...please, spare us the dutch uncle routine. Misinterpretations happen when scripture is misinterpreted, and the fruits bear witness to that.

3/1/07, 8:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gortexgrrl said...J 7:49 PM
"I don't want to go back into a big thing about whether or not the Bible "commands" people to marry, but at some level, people need some degree of encouragement or "blessing" to marry, especially because of the past few decades of "best to remain as you are", "better to remain single"."

==I certainly have no problem with anything you have said in the above paragraph. I am certainly not "anti-marriage" or anything like that. Most people should get married.

===================

"Trent and Smalley talk about people who have never been given the blessing to marry in their book "The Blessing". It all sounds well and good to tell people that all you've gotta do is just forget about themselves and serve God, but in practice, it has given a lot of people mixed messages and made them feel as if it's sinful to make a priority out of finding a spouse"

==Finding a spouse "can" become sinful "if" it becomes the number one goal of a person's life. In that case it becomes a sin because it becomes a idol. Certainly that applies to everything in life. Anything, anyone, who comes before Christ in our lives is an idol. If God is first in our lives He will take care of our needs/desires (Ps 37:4-7, Matt 6:31-34). Does that mean we sit back and do "nothing"? Certainly not. However it does mean that we don't need to worry about anything in that regard (Phil 4:6-7). I would never advise anyone who wants to get married not to date (etc). However I would also advise "against" changing churches (etc) simply to meet someone (1Cor 7:27). A person who is going from church to church in search of a spouse is going to church for the wrong reasons.

==========================
"1) the BRASHLY CERTAIN who claim to hear from God a lot and may be quick to think that what they want is what God wants for them"

==As long as what they "claim" God has said to them is in line with Scripture I have no problem with them. However if their claims and God's Word contradict then they need a serious warning.

===================

"2) the PIOUSLY PASSIVE, who haven't heard anything, which is fine with them, because they want to "remain as they are"

==If they are happy where they are at (ie...single) and God has not lead them to marry then I think they should stay as they are (1Cor 7:32-38). I see no Biblical reason to force/shame them into marriage if that is not what they want.

=========================
"3) the EARNESTLY UNCERTAIN, who are always asking themselves if this is God telling them "this is it", or is it their own mind?"

==Well that is a problem some people have in a lot of different areas of their lives. I believe, however, that true sheep know the voice of Jesus (Jn 10:27). That does not mean we can't make mistakes (etc) but it does mean that a true Christian "will" know the voice of Christ when He speaks (Jn 10:3-5).

There is a group that you forgot to mention. These people are frantic, in a panic, to get married. They jump from church to church, from singles group to singles group, they are signed up at eHarmony and Match.com, they go on a date with anyone who is willing to go out with them. These people will drive people away from them. Why? Because they act in desperation and desperation is not an attractive thing.

=========================

"Over the years, I have seen so many false alarms among the brashly certain and I've seen piously passive people waste their lives away."

==Waste their lives? According to who's opinion? Theirs? Yours? If someone is happy as a single, and if God allows them to stay that way, and if they are following Christ, then I don't think we can say they have wasted their lives. Certainly Paul did not waste his life.

Marriage does not equal a meaningful life.

========================

"they have too much integrity to kid themselves that God would tell them to marry a sinner such as the ones available to them."

==Well if God does not lead you to marry a sinner then you will not get married (Rom 3:23, 1Jn 1:8-10). God calls His children to marry His children. Yes we are all sinners but we are sinners under the blood of Jesus Christ, justified, sanctified, and eternally secure. God does forbid His children to marry a unbeliever who is dead in their sins.

======================

"Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people shouldn't seek God's guidance, as a matter fact, I think we should. It's just that the kind of big "word from the Lord" moments promised during the heyday of the Charismatic Movement didn't happen as expected for a lot of people"

==I am far from charismatic. When I talk about getting permission from God, or guidance, I am just talking about how God leads His people. I am not talking about hearing a voice or having a lightening bolt pop you on the head. Nor am I talking about grand Angelic visions or visitations. In many ways I am talking about that "still small voice".

=======================

"Even if some of you here have had more of an experience of being made to doubt the rightness of wanting to stay single, you've got to have some compassion for those who have been made to doubt the rightness of wanting to marry."

==I see no Biblical reason to doubt the "rightness of wanting to marry" (1Cor 7:28). My concern, however, is with singles who make finding a spouse the top goal of their life. Why? Well first there is the danger that it becomes an idol and, in that case, God will not answer their prayer (Jms 4:3). Secondly if they become desperate they are going to drive more people away from them then they will draw to them. Life must be balanced. Sometimes having a balanced life is tricky (mainly when you desire something you don't have).

=========================

"And that's why it has gotten so polarized-- and certainly there's been bullying on all sides. But even if we don't all agree on every aspect of the "singleness as sin" debate"

==I would hope that nobody is claiming that singleness, alone, is a sin. If anyone is arguing that then they are in serious error.

=====================

"perhaps what comes out of this could be more consensus that circumstantial singleness is not a gift, even though some may be gifted in such a way that inclines them towards choosing celibate singleness that enables them to serve God in some special capacity."

==Ok, I am going to go out on a limb here and say something that might be easily misunderstood. So PLEASE take everything I have said here into account before jumping to hasty conclusions. Ok?

If a person is a child of God, and if they are following the Lord (etc) like they should be, and they find themselves in "circumstantial singleness", may I suggest that the Lord "might" be trying to tell them something? I would never try to say what He might be trying to tell them but it is something they "may" need to look into (you need to stay single, you have some priorities mixed up, there is sin in your life, etc). If you believe that God is sovereign, like I do, then you must believe that He is in control. If He is allowing a child of His, who is serving Him, to be in circumstantial singleness then there "has" to be a reason. Maybe the reason is in the person or maybe the reason is larger than that.

Not trying to put doubt in anyone's mind. However there are some tough questions we must consider.

======================

"Likewise, some individuals may feel personally that their singleness is a gift"

==Truthfully I have only run into a few of these type people. Most of us singles are circumstantial singles. What I mean by that is that our life has taken us in a direction that has, to this point, prevented marriage. This does not "have" to be a bad thing. However I don't know that many people who are single because that is/was their goal in life.

=======================

"But for most singles, it's just a fact about their life right now, one that requires no gushy glorification."


==Here I am responding more to Maken than you.

I will turn that statement around a bit: "But for many singles, it's just a fact about their life right now, one that requires no shame or guilt."

Martin

3/2/07, 5:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know this goes against scriptural understanding, but I have mixed feelings about the "unequally yoked" warning.

I live in a very racially and religiously mixed area. Many Buddhists and Hindu young people have married into Christian families and this has caused a chain-reaction of many conversions - and thus many more Christians.

I know this goes against established doctrine, but I honestly feel Paul was advising against marrying those who were firmly pagan and not open to conversion.

3/2/07, 10:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
10:50 AM

"I know this goes against scriptural understanding, but I have mixed feelings about the "unequally yoked" warning.
I live in a very racially and religiously mixed area. Many Buddhists and Hindu young people have married into Christian families and this has caused a chain-reaction of many conversions - and thus many more Christians."

==We must be very careful to allow Scripture, and Scripture alone, to guide our beliefs and practices. We cannot allow what other people do to be our guide. The fact is that that most "missionary marriages" simply don't work. One spouse is destined to live the rest of their lives with a person with whom they can't share the most important part of their life (ie...their relationship with Jesus). Worse than that the believer knows that when their unbelieving spouse dies their spouse will be cast into hell fire forever never to be seen again. They are literally heading in two very different directions.

It is a dangerous thing to knowingly marry a unbeliever. It is dangerous for the reasons listed above but also because of the good chance that the unbeliever will drag the believer away from the Lord.

If a person gets saved after their marriage, thus they are married to a unbeliever, that is a different situation. They are required to stay in their marriage (1Cor 7:12-16).

==============

"I know this goes against established doctrine, but I honestly feel Paul was advising against marrying those who were firmly pagan and not open to conversion."

==I'm sorry but what a person "feels" is not what is important. The "fact" is that nothing in 2Corinthians 6:14-18 verifies your logic here. Believers, who walk in the light, have nothing in common with unbelievers who are in the dark. Not only that the command for believers to marry only believers is repeated by Paul in 1Corinthians 7:39.

Believers must only marry believers. That is the clear message of Scripture. Simply because some believers disobey Scripture does not make it the right thing to do.

Martin.

3/2/07, 5:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

Thanks for the clarity on Scripture.

I am still somewhat troubled by the admonition that Christians only marry Christians. I am 68 and married a nominally Buddhist woman when she was 21 and I was 22. Her entire family became Christians over time. I see this happening in other families as well.

I know my marriage profoundly impacted the family back in Thailand and some relatives began reading the Bible though I don't know if any converted. I do know many asians in my community have converted.

Perhaps then the emphasis should be on conversion and sharing the Gospel before marriage. Romantic love is very powerful and can short-circuit a person's understandings. I dreamed a few nights ago of time long ago. My Chandra and I were having lunch on Mount Washington in Los Angeles. I think I knew then that it was a big problem that she was Thai and I was a big white guy. Being Buddhist was even worse. All I knew was that I loved her beyond understanding.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't want to sin, and didn't in the physical sense, we married young to avoid that. I simply felt such a powerful love that I plainly knew she was the one for me. It was like a spiritual understanding that defies logic. I hope people still fall in love this way, and don't think their way past the most incredible love experiences in life.

I have to agree with reliance on Scripture, but in those cases where it seems God causes things to happen for His glory that it isn't so bad after all. But then again, it might just be old memories of romance coloring my thoughts.

3/2/07, 7:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gortexgrrl said... 6:45 PM

"I don't see why this is has become such as knee-jerk line when it comes to talking about singleness among Christians. As you've said, it applies to everything in life and I don't think that singles should be "singled out" or fear risking being labelled as idolators simply for making marriage a priority goal."

==Making marriage a priority or goal is not making marriage a idol. Marriage, or anything, can become an idol when it becomes "the" most important thing in a person's life. We all know singles who's whole life revolves around "getting married", don't we? They think about it all day. They go from church to church, from singles group to singles group, from date to date. It has become an idol for them. I think this is very important because if we are asking God for something with faulty motives then we are not going to get an answer (Jms 4:3).

==================

"It's only been in recent decades in our culture that any frankness about wanting to get married is regarded as "desperate"."

==It is not "frankness about wanting to get married" that I am calling desperate. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get married. There is something wrong when that desire, or most any desire, controls a person's life and becomes "lord" in that person's life. It is about balance.

==================

"By this rationale you could excuse all kinds of well-meaning but poorly executed choices."

==I don't understand. If something is in agreement with Scripture, and the person believes God is leading them in that direction, how could it be a poor choice? Of course the person could be "making it up" but we can't control that. We have to stick with Scriptural principles. If people abuse those principles than that is on their heads.

======================

"Paul said they may be "happier" if they "stay as they are", but he didn't say that you should necessarily base your decision on "what makes you happy"."

==??? Paul said it would make a person happier? He said it is "good" for a person to remain unmarried. He goes on to list several reasons for this (lack of trouble, more time to serve, etc). Either way Paul does say that those who can should remain single. Jesus said the same thing.

=======================

"Besides, aren't you suggesting a double standard here? That you can stay single "if it makes you happy", but to get married, you need "permission from God"?"

==Where did I say that singles, who plan on not marrying, should not seek the Lord's guidance in that? Again these decisions are too important to leave God out.

====================

"You may be surprised by this, but very few people who get married attest to ever having had any kind of divine confirmation,"

==Maybe this is one reason why the divorce rate in the church is so high? Witherington made this point in his blog.

========================

"can you understand that the responses to problematic teachings of the past three decades that I've described in my last post are recognizable among Christians all over the western world?"

==There are many problems in popular western "Christian" teachings. And these problems have lead to many faulty beliefs (etc) among groups of Christians. So, yes, I can understand. However I don't see singleness, by itself, as the problem. I think the problem is that people in general are not growing up (single or married). I know forty something year old men who play video games and, if their wife would let them, would play those games all day on Saturday and all day on Sunday. Nothing wrong with video games but when a person is willing to waste a whole day playing games there is a problem.

=====================

"So no, I don't think it's a very useful exercise to tell someone who's involuntarily single that "maybe God is trying to tell them that He wants them to be single"."

==Well then you are leading people in a direction where they may ignore God. After all what does the Scripture say about unanswered prayers? Wrong motives (Jms 4:3) sin (Ps 66:18), poor family relationships (1Pet 3:7), unbelief or doubt (Jms 1:5-7), the prayer is not God's will (1Jn 5:14-15) etc. Anytime our prayers go "unanswered" we should seek out the reason. If a person desires marriage, and has prayed for it, yet nothing happens over and over and over again, then something is going on. And that person needs to seek out what that "something" maybe.

=================

"Besides, contrary to what some reform types may think, reconciling every affliction as "God's will" isn't necessary, helpful, or even accurate, even if everything does happen under God's sovereignty."

==Actually God is in control and He does what He pleases (Ps 135:6, 103:19, Is 46:10). This is why God wants His children to come to Him, and to trust in Him for their "daily" needs (Matt 6:25-34). If God can be trusted to save us for eternity, to provide for our daily needs, then certainly He can be trusted to lead us in the area of marriage/singleness.

Every trial has a purpose. The cause of the trial maybe the result of something bad we did, something bad someone else did, circumstances that are out of our control, or even demonic activity. However we can be sure that nothing touches a child of God apart from God allowing it. So any of those events could be the Lord "allowing" a storm of trouble to teach us a lesson (see Job). Keep in mind God can turn negative events into good results.

Martin

3/3/07, 5:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...7:23 PM

"I am still somewhat troubled by the admonition that Christians only marry Christians. I am 68 and married a nominally Buddhist woman when she was 21 and I was 22. Her entire family became Christians over time. I see this happening in other families as well."

==That's great that they are coming to Christ and, to be clear, I believe you should remain married. Maybe your marriage will result in salvations. However such "missionary marriages" rarely work. It may work in your case, in others cases also, but over-all it does not work. More importantly Scripture teaches that believers should not marry unbelievers (1Cor 7:39). So that is what we have to go by.

====================

"I have to agree with reliance on Scripture, but in those cases where it seems God causes things to happen for His glory that it isn't so bad after all. But then again, it might just be old memories of romance coloring my thoughts."

==I don't believe that God will lead someone to do something that is contrary to His Word. However, in your case, you are now happily married and that is a good thing. If it has not happened already I pray that your wife will come to know Jesus as her Lord and Savior. If she already has then praise the Lord!!

God bless you!
Martin.

3/3/07, 5:10 AM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Gortexgrrl,

This caught my eye:

You said:
Not that God isn't interested in the details of our lives, but there's nowhere in the Bible that says "God has A plan for your life" or that everything that happens to you is "God's plan".

Really? So, God is just suprised when things happen to you? He just has to come along later and put a band aide on it? I don't believe that is the way God is presented in the Bible at all. Here is what the Bible says:

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Notice it is all things, not some things, but all thinks are worked after the council of God's will.

There is nothing in God's universe that he wants to take place that does not take place either. The Old Testament is full of these examples:

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Psalm 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.

Daniel 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

I think that what you have said shows the extreme man-centeredness of the mandatory marriage movement. If you go about getting a spouse correctly, then God must give you a spouse.

You said:
Besides, contrary to what some reform types may think, reconciling every affliction as "God's will" isn't necessary, helpful, or even accurate, even if everything does happen under God's sovereignty. God doesn't generally suspend His natural order to stop the sin of those here from affecting the innocents there. It's more helpful to point to the reality of sin, and the power of God to work the consequences of it to His good.

This is the whole problem. We are saying that it was in God's perfect will to purpose that sin would come into existance and effect "innocents." That is the only way you can say that evil has any purpose. Unless you believe that God is directing evil by his providence, you are left with the belief that the evil is meaningless. God might come along and put a band aid on it later, but, at the time it happened, it was purposeless.

The one thing that has made me cringe at the mandatory marriage movement is the extreme man-centeredness displayed in these statements. It indeed *does* help to point out that even evil is under God's control, because then everything that happens in your life is under God's control, as the passages I quoted above stated. Therefore, for someone to demand of God that they give them a spouse is nothing more then pure idolatry. God is under no obligation to give a spouse to anyone. He gives according to his will, not according to your will, or anyone else's will. While that does not mean that you should not go out and pursue a spouse [because God does use means], it does mean that God has every right as your creator and soverign king, to say "no" to your request for a spouse, no matter how pure and how honest your request is. He is God, and you are not.

3/3/07, 6:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

Thanks for posting the stuff on Witherington. A while back when he did some blogging on issues related to singleness, I asked him (in the comments section) pretty much point blank about some of Maken's positions and he expressed clear disagreement with them.

As I recall, he said that Paul gives two options for the Christian, either sexual activity within marriage or celibacy within singleness. He also expressed clear disagreement with her "biblical" litmus test for valid singleness. You can probably still find the comments if look back under the original article.

I also recommend reading from several good commentaries on 1 Cor 7 such as Gordon Fee's, David Garland's, and Anthony Thistelton's. None of them really offer strong support for Maken's position. At least one of them (can't remember which one right now) states quite clearly that much of what is said in 1 Cor 7 is advice rather than commands. Paul simply does not issue commands one way or the other when it comes to marriage and singleness, but leaves the choice up to the indivdual Christian. I find this very interesting in light of the mandatory-marriage crowd's insistence that marriage is not a matter of Christain liberty.

I also recommend reading the commentary on 1 Cor 7 in "The Church's Bible" commentary series edited by Robert Louis Wilken. It feature excerps from the commentaries of various ancient church fathers like Augustine, Athanasius, John Chrysostom and the like. The variety of perspectives given is very interesting, and gives the lie to the claim Maken repeatedly makes that all of church history is on her side in this issue.

3/4/07, 6:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

John MacArthur Blasts Maken

Well, not directly, but his comments certain disagree with Maken's teachings...

"The norm of marriage, that is presented throughout scripture, is not to make us think that anybody single is abnormal. It isn’t so. One Bible teacher said, if you are single, you are incomplete. Is that true? I don’t think it’s true. I don’t think it’s true that single people are losers, single people are misfits, single people are incomplete, abnormal, and yet I think that our society, at least our Christian society tends to think that."

http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=230698

Martin.

3/5/07, 6:21 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Jennifer,

You said:
Fine. You're still stuck with decades of theologians debating about what's the gift, singleness or celibacy?

I don't care. My statement wasn't intended to solve that question. It was only to say that the vocabulary "ho men houtos, ho de houtos" does not necessitate indefiniteness of any kind. Hence, the issue must be contextual, not lexical.

You said:
Most scholars do treat 6-9 as a unit (some leave out verse 6, suggesting that it may be referring to married people, but that would throw verse 10 out of balance where he gives instructions to married people, "not I but the Lord" (opposite of verse 6).

I wouldn't agree with that. I mean, I would think it would depend on how scholars take verse 8. The commentaries that I have read are split right down the middle.

However, let us say that it is true that most scholars agree with you. That still does not prove anything. The whole reasons why you learn Greek and Hebrew is so you can analyze the arguments of scholars. Keep in mind that, by using your line of argumentation, most scholars do not believe that Moses wrote the Pentatuch, or that David wrote the Psalms. The question is whether or not these claims are right, and, even if it is the case most scholars believe this, let them bring their arguments foward, and see if I can knock them down.

As for the theory that verses 8 and 9 are about widows only, we've already discussed that elsewhere, so I don't see the point in going back over that, esp. since that's another disputed theory.

Well, again, who cares whether or not it is disputed? Virtually everything in Debbie Maken's book is disputed. Second, here this interpretation becomes important because it shows that Paul is shifting his train of thought in verse 8. However, you just dismissed this statement before saying that it wasn't relevant. Where, outside of that, did you address this claim?

That's your opinion, and what JP has done with other passages is irrelevant.

Well, again, lets see you try to knock it down. I didn't study three years of Greek and two years of Hebrew in college to just leave it to people's "opinions." I want to be able to critically examine the "opinions" that are brought to me.

First of all, I don't appreciate you making interpretations about my motives this way, especially since the last time you said this, you completely screwed up what I was saying. I could just as easily say the same thing to you. Some scholars, lean toward "gift of singleness", others lean towards "gift of celibacy", some like Kiwoong Son think it's neither (and I agree with him, although if I had to guess, I'd say celibacy, since historically that's been the more favored interpretation). You, on the other hand, make it sound like a "slam dunk" for GoS, because that's what you think is right, isn't it?

Well, first of all, when you clearly say that the reason you believe this interpretation is wrong is because of the "fruits," I would say that is clear proof that you are not doing exegesis at all. Notice, in none of my posts did I *ever* refer to the fruits of any interpretation. No exegete ever should. His responsablity should be to allow the text to speak on its own. Hence, I did not look at external factors to determine my conclusions about the text. I simply looked at the grammar, structure, and vocabulary of the text. That is what I meant. It has nothing to do with "figuring out your motives," as you have already told them to the world. How you distinguish between the correct and the incorrect interpretation is on the basis of teleology, not on the basis of the grammar, structure, and exegesis of the text. If you want to say that I am doing the same thing, that is fine. However, just prove it by showing where I have ever appealed to teleology to be the determining factor as to the correct or incorrect interpretation of a passage?

If this is what BW is saying, then "the gift" isn't the "state of being", but the ENABLEMENT to undertake that state of being, most likely "sexual containment" as per verses 5 and 9". As for having a "charisma" for marriage, nowhere in the Bible is marriage treated as a "charisma", if anything verse 9 treats it as what you do if you DON'T have that "charisma"!

I would say that the enablement to undertake the state of being is what BW would call the "gift of singleness." Of course, that is also contrary to the mandatory marriage movement. Either way you slice it, BW doesn't agree with you.

Second, again, like most mandatory marraige advocates, you have begged the question. All you can say is "nowhere is marriage called a gift" totally begging the question as to whether it is called a gift in 1 Corinthians 7:7, which is the topic of dispute.

"You see,"...please, spare us the dutch uncle routine. Misinterpretations happen when scripture is misinterpreted, and the fruits bear witness to that.

So, there can be no such thing as a "misapplication????????" This kind of cavalier dismissal, again, only goes to show that you don't want to answer the point I brought up. I hope that I *never* have to just ignore something someone else wrote, just because I don't like what it says. However, sadly, this is the norm of the folks that follow Debbie Maken.

3/6/07, 2:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gortexgrrl said...

“It's one thing to claim that you are doing God's will by scripture and quite another to boast having gotten personal confirmation from God. You pray and open yourself up to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but ultimately, you are a human being making fallible choices and you must confess some responsibility for that, since it's not always clear where you end and God begins.”

==While I agree that people can confuse their own desires (etc) for the voice of God I believe such mistakes occur due to ignorance and/or sin (etc). God communicates with His people. Those who wait on Him will hear His voice. However people today, like Abraham (etc), are not above making a mistake. That is why Scripture must always be our anchor. God will never contradict His Word.

“I didn't say that you shouldn't look at what can be learned from singleness as a consequence of something bad we did”

==Biblically there is no evidence that singleness “must” be a result of something bad we, or anyone else, did. The Bible does not view singleness as a negative. After all what did Paul say? He said that he wished that everyone was like him in that he did not need marriage (1Cor 7:7-9). From a Biblical perspective marriage and singleness are equal states. There are bad marriages that are the results of bad decisions and there are singles that are miserable because of bad choices.

Martin.

3/7/07, 12:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone here who has access to Debbie Maken may wish to advise her to be more careful with her historical references. In one of the interviews on her site I heard her site an historical reference point that is, well, let's just say, not the best example to be holding up as an example of how she thinks things should be. She seems real quick to throw in "historical examples" yet, as a history major, I wonder how much study she has put into her examples. This is not the first time I have heard her give an example that caused me to do a double take. Maken needs to do her homework, carefully, before going out there and saying here is an historical example that proves her point.

Sadly when I look at her treatment of the Scriptures, however, I see little evidence that she is actually concerned with getting the larger context and all the facts. It seems like she only uses Scripture and history selectively in order to prove her presuppositions true.

Martin.

3/7/07, 12:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Give us an example, Martin.

3/7/07, 2:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back To Geneva

One example would be her use of, what she refered to as, Calvin's Geneva. Like many in that time it was a church/state union that executed those it considered heretics. Historically it does not matter if the person was/was not a heretic what matters is the differences in that society and our own. Is Maken suggesting that Geneva was a better set up than the United States? Or she picking and choosing what historical information she wishes to use to promote her ideas?

I am a Calvinist, but I am also a Baptist and a American. As such I certainly don't believe we should be modeling our lives after Geneva. However if Debbie Maken wants to live in a modern Geneva then she is more than welcome to do so. That is her right.

Btw, in case one things I am being overly picky you must consider that the policies (etc) of Geneva determined the lives of the people. You can't seperate the two.

Martin.

3/7/07, 4:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where does she say "back to Geneva"?

Somehow I doubt that she's suggesting that Geneva was a "better set up" than the United States. It's a bit pie-in-the-sky for her to think that we'd suddenly go back to things like parents ruling the mating process. Only under a totalitarian system (or some miraculous worldwide spiritual revival) could you make that happen!

3/7/07, 6:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Where does she say "back to Geneva"?

==In one of the interviews she has linked on her blog she uses what she calls "Calvin's Geneva" as an example of how guys should be treated if they don't get married. It goes back to what I said. She is cherry picking history, and Scripture, to use as support for her position. The problem is that examining history, and Scripture, shows that her arguments are not that well "researched".


Martin

3/7/07, 7:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back to the 50's?

A lot of the guys here yearn for the days when women were financially dependent upon men, but it doesn't occur to them that not only would that mean less freedoms for women, but less freedoms for men as well, both having much stricter gender roles back then. Not having a wife in those days would almost always have guaranteed less status and a certain amount of suspicion.

3/8/07, 12:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reply to: Anonymous... 12:14 PM



You said:
“A lot of the guys here yearn for the days when women were financially dependent upon men, but it doesn't occur to them that not only would that mean less freedoms for women, but less freedoms for men as well, both having much stricter gender roles back then.”

==I don’t know about other guys here but I don’t wish to have things the way they were in the 1950s. Women should be allowed to work outside the home if they wish and they should be able to attend school and do other things like that.




“Not having a wife in those days would almost always have guaranteed less status and a certain amount of suspicion.”

==That is a perfect example of the dangers of over-generalization. My grandfather did not marry my grandmother until he was well into his forties and that would have been in the late 1940s. That was his first and only marriage. He was not looked upon with “suspicion” nor did he hold less “status”. He owned a farm with a lot of land and was considered a very eligible bachelor. My great-grandmother did not like him “at first” but that was not because he was single and in his forties. Rather it was because she did not like the woman he had been “dating” (very loosely speaking). He was in good standing in the church and in the community. I could go on and on. The point is that we have to be very careful when we attempt to “over-generalize” since very often there are many, many, many exceptions to the “norm” or “rule”. Also there is a tendency in this country to look upon that period of history with some nostalgia. Many Americans tend to think it was really like “Leave It To Beaver”. In fact some social historians have written books on this phenomenon. There were many single men in those days (not as many as now of course) and all of them were not viewed with suspicion or anything like that. However, and this is a really big however, even if all single men were looked upon with suspicion in the 1950s that does not mean it was right. The majority can be wrong you know. The Bible is the final judge of these matters since it is the Word of God. The Bible does not view single men with suspicion nor does it encourage anyone to do that.

3/8/07, 1:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, yes, there are exceptions and the majority isn't always right, but keep in mind Martin, that it was you who said that most singles "should" marry, and I believe you made that statement in obesiance to scriptural principles. All cultures have some expectation that people "should" marry, which includes some degree of interest in why someone might not be married. It is only in modern western culture where you see this idea that this curiosity or concern is a gross affront to individuality. We have a "right" to do our own thing, which seems to mean that we have a "right" for approval from others. And that's what this blog is about: I have a "right" to approval from my church community about my singleness.

3/8/07, 2:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Response to Anonymous 2:27 PM

“there are exceptions and the majority isn't always right, but keep in mind Martin, that it was you who said that most singles "should" marry”

--Yes I said that and I stand by that. However my statement in no way means that I believe that simply because someone is single they should be looked upon with “suspicion” or should have a lower social status. My point in my last reply was to show that there were many men in the 1940s and 50s who were not married and yet who were not frowned upon. I imagine many singles who were frowned upon in those days were frowned upon because of their behavior and not simply the fact that they were single.

I believe you made that statement in obeisance to scriptural principles. All cultures have some expectation that people "should" marry, which includes some degree of interest in why someone might not be married.

==Scripture never says, “people should marry”. Marriage is seen as the norm for most people but it is never commanded of them. Marriage is not a Biblical mandate rather it is an option that most people will choose. Others will choose not to marry while others, who strongly desire marriage, will be denied marriage (Matt 19:10-12). Btw, in Matthew 19 I do not take the term “eunuch” only in a literal physical sense. The main reason is the statement that some people have “made themselves eunuchs”. I doubt Jesus is talking about a person who does physical harm to themselves in order to avoid marriage. The point of the verse is that there are people who can’t marry due to some issue that has been with them from birth (mental, physical, etc), there are others who can’t marry because of things done by other people (situations, physical/mental injury, etc), and then there are those who are single because they desire to serve the Lord (missionaries, pastors, teachers, etc..). However this list Jesus gives is not comprehensive. It is simply three basic groups Paul expands this somewhat in 1Corinthians 7.

As for a community wondering why someone does not marry. Well, my question is what business is it of theirs? Not to be rude but this is an issue that Scripture places between that person and God. Certainly family and close friends are in on that decision but they don’t make the decision nor are they the judge of that decision.

It is only in modern western culture where you see this idea that this curiosity or concern is a gross affront to individuality. We have a "right" to do our own thing

==That may play into some people’s thinking. However it does not play into my thinking on this. My point is simply that this is a personal decision that Scripture gives no commandment on. While it is ok for people to ask it is not ok for people to judge someone on this issue. That should be left to God.

I have a "right" to approval from my church community about my singleness.

==I don’t know of any churches that seek to approve or disapprove of anyone being single. My church does not worry about me being single and if they do it certainly does not show. As long as a believer is living a godly lifestyle and is walking with the Lord their singleness should not be a negative issue.

3/8/07, 6:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Marriage is seen as the norm for most people but it is never commanded of them." I agree that there is no verbatim "command" per se in the scriptures, but marriage is regarded as quite a bit more than "the norm": 1 Cor 7:2.

"As for a community wondering why someone does not marry. Well, my question is what business is it of theirs? Not to be rude but this is an issue that Scripture places between that person and God." Interesting...that's something that liberals say about abortion.

"As long as a believer is living a godly lifestyle and is walking with the Lord their singleness should not be a negative issue." Under this rationale, you can let an entire generation of apparently well-behaved, but covertly too-picky Christian singles go virtually unnoticed and unchallenged. And I really don't think you get to see the impact of that until a generation or two has passed.

"Life is too short to learn from experience"

3/8/07, 8:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The women who continue to attack and condemn unmarried men are the ones who waited too long to "get serious" about marriage. Now they see Maken as an almost Messianic figure. The most recent thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com post asks for prayers of protection for Maken, claiming that God is speaking directly through her to long-suffering spinsters.

This debate has now become silly. The Maken movement is in danger of becoming a "Latter Day Feminist Saints" movement. They want marriage, but hate men; they misuse scripture, then say critics are working for Satan; they put off marriage in youth for other concerns, then simmer with rage because few men want angry 40 year old spinsters.

The only good news is that Maken's supporters are few in number - and will hopefully see the light before too many more years are wasted.

...in such a time as this.

3/9/07, 5:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Response to Anonymous 8:15 PM

I agree that there is no verbatim "command" per se in the scriptures, but marriage is regarded as quite a bit more than "the norm": 1 Cor 7:2.

==Marriage is seen as the norm in Scripture however Scripture does not condemn singleness in anyway.


"Interesting...that's something that liberals say about abortion.”

==Apples and oranges. Abortion is condemned in Scripture since it is the taking of innocent life. Singleness is not condemned in Scripture in fact it is recommended for those who are able (Matt 19:11, 1Cor 7:6-9,26-28, etc).

"Under this rationale, you can let an entire generation of apparently well-behaved, but covertly too-picky Christian singles go virtually unnoticed and unchallenged.

==Why should they be challenged on something that Scripture does not challenge them on or command them to do? Under your rationale someone should have challenged Jesus and Paul, not to mention Jeremiah and the others singles. As far as singles “too-picky” well, I’m sorry, but I don’t see picky as a bad thing. If someone is going to marry someone they better be very picky. Why? Because once you are married you are married and there is NO getting out of it for most people (Matt 19:4-9).

And I really don't think you get to see the impact of that until a generation or two has passed

==Actually I am not concerned about “generational impact”. I am concerned about Scripture and what it commands. And on that note eternity is too long to be wrong. Not only that but life is too long to rush into marriage and marry the wrong person.

Martin.

3/9/07, 5:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"the most recent thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com post asks for prayers of protection for Maken, claiming that God is speaking directly through her to long-suffering spinsters."

==If God is speaking through Debbie Maken then we are in serious trouble. Why? Because that would mean that God has changed His mind on this issue since He inspired Scripture.


Martin.

3/9/07, 5:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Martin,

Why would you align yourself with someone like anonymous 5:02 am?

He's a tricker who creates chaos and picks on individuals.

You'll see.

3/9/07, 9:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think you meant "trickster"... and I think you should have added poser to that, since I doubt he's even a Christian.

3/9/07, 9:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

200 posts. Wow. This thread owes us nothing.

Hey Anakin, when's the next installment?

3/9/07, 10:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"...few men want angry 40 year old spinsters."

That is exactly what I am looking for. If only I could find a stubborn, difficult and simply horrible woman; about age 40, I'd be very happy.

Hmm... if only I could find one willing to relocate... =)

3/9/07, 12:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

195 posts from martin alone.

3/9/07, 1:25 PM  
Blogger Valerie (Kyriosity) said...

There are a lot of comments here, and I have no idea when they were made (plea to blogger comments users everywhere: please change the comment time stamp to include the date!), but my name was invoked somewhere along the line, and I'd like to clarify/defend my words that were quoted.

Wombatty, you have characterized me as blaming men for some women being "snotty, condescending and confrontational." In fact, I only mentioned "confrontational" in my quote. Now let me explain the sort of "confrontational" scenario I had in mind: Guy is paying girl a heap of attention. As time goes by, and emotional intimacy deepens, but he says nothing about where this is going, she finally works up the courage to ask, "What's the deal?" She's not snotty and condescending, she's nervous and vulnerable. My point in the comment you quoted is that if men who cared for her -- father, brothers, elders, etc. -- were doing their job of protecting her, they would be the ones conducting this sort of confrontation. I've had to have that sort of talk in the past, and am very grateful to now be in a church where my elders would protect me from getting into such a situation in the first place.

Debbie Maken got tired of having to wait ages to get around to the "What's the deal" conversation, so she started getting right to the point right off the bat. If our Christian culture hadn't quit calling men to exercise biblical authority, diligent responsibility and painstaking care for their daughters, sisters, and other women under their protection, Mrs. Maken would never have had to ask "the eunuch question."

There are women who have contempt for men because they hate masculinity. And there are women who are willing to confront men because they love masculinity. Neither I nor Debbie Maken belong in the first category.

3/9/07, 2:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think everyone here understands the frustration of single women with the lack of men who will commit to marriage. But isn't the lack of actively Christian men a result of churches working to appeal to women and seniors instead of focusing on encouraging families?

If a very small subset of Christian men are resistant to marry due to devotional reasons, concerns about divorce, etc., why should the few remaining men who are looking for marriage be condemned as eunuchs and insulted as lacking manhood?

Men understand the frustration of single women, but men didn't create the situation women find themselves in.

If you ladies want to follow Debbie Maken, shame and insult your dates and then go on an Indian matchmaking site. You can have an Indian husband just like Debbie.

Problem solved.

3/9/07, 3:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...9:37 AM

"Why would you align yourself with someone like anonymous 5:02 am? He's a tricker who creates chaos and picks on individuals."

I have not "aligned" myself with anyone. How can I align with people who will not even use their name? I can't keep one Anonymous straight from another Anonymous. It is very confusing.

Martin.

3/9/07, 3:34 PM  
Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...

Heh. I'm glad Kyriosity clued me in on the ability to change date/time formats on the comments. I had been wondering about that myself.


Anonymous said...

200 posts. Wow. This thread owes us nothing.

Hey Anakin, when's the next installment?

3/9/07 10:23 AM



Lord willing, the next installment will come very soon, at least in the next couple of days. I am almost finished with the rough draft. :-S

3/9/07, 8:09 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Gortexgirl,

No, I doubt that God is ever surprised by anything that happens to us, whether it's by our own doing, someone else's, or something else. And although His compassion is infinite, no, I don't believe he "has to" come along later and put a bandaid on it. What I said was quite the opposite: "God doesn't generally suspend His natural order to stop the sin of those here from affecting the innocents there".

However, you also don't believe these circumstances are ordained of God. That is where the man-centeredness of your position comes in where man is ultimately, in this instance, a self-determining being.

So I really don't see how you can mischaracterize what I'm saying to mean that "If you go about getting a spouse correctly, then God must give you a spouse." I'm saying that if you or someone else (ie parents, society, etc) screws up (and even if you don't), God is NOT obligated to send circumstances that spare us from the perils of this earth!

That's right. You are saying that the reason people do not have a spouse is because someone "screwed up." That's the problem. So, in other words, if we would just do it right, God would be obligated to give us a spouse. The man-centeredness of this position is incredible. Aside from the fact that there is no biblical evidence whatsoever that marriage is a duty or that delay of marriage is a sin, we insert the will of man here as the ultimate determining factor in whether or not he gets married. As I said, very, very man centered.

The way you've worded things here, PC, you've basically made God the author of sin, showing that you have no grasp on the calvinist understanding of "second causes". So I shall echo the words of Debbie Maken: that you are neither puritan nor calvinist.

Then, let us see if you can answer the question that Debbie Maken could not and cannot. If God foreknew that people were going to be evil, then why did he create them? Why didn't he stop it by refusing to create someone who he knew would be evil? In that situation, everyone would freely choose to do what is good. In your position God is just as much the "author of evil" as mine, because he knew that these people were going to do evil, and yet he went ahead and created them anyway. The only difference between my position and your position is that evil has a purpose given my belief system.

Second, God is the first cause, not the second cause. God is not the one who *does* the evil. He is the one who *ordains* the evil, and therefore makes it certain that it will come about. However, he is not the second cause [the one who actually performs the evil action].

BTW, Debbie Maken is SO UNBELIEVIBLY IGNORANT of reformed theology, it is embarrassing. If you are getting your information from her about what second causes are, and what a true Calvinist is, then I would say that would explain why you would agree with her. I posted what Debbie Maken said in a chat room with several Calvinists, some of whom are even published authors, and they could not believe that Christian leaders were supporting this woman. One person said she was a "non-Calvinist."

To demonstrate just how ignorant she is, here is the Westminster confession of faith, and I will let everyone tell me if you and Debbie Maken are holding to what it states:

WCF 3:1 God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:(1) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,(2) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.(3)

WCF 3:2 Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,(1) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.(2)

WCF 3:3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels(1) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.(2)

Does that sound like my position or Debbie Maken's position? In reality, it is Debbie Maken who is ignorant here. She simply doesn't know what Calvinism is, and hence, she does not know that her position is another brand of pure Arminianism, based upon pagan Socinian philosophy. You might say, "But she was a member of a reformed church!" To which I reply that being a member at a reformed church does not make you knowledgable in reformed theology. I know many people who are a member of my church that the pastor and elders have to correct because they make a mistake in theology.

In reality, free will theism is the life blood that keeps unbiblical and legalistic movements like this alive. Andreas Kostenburger put if right when he said that her thinking is not even Christian. I agree. It is incredibly man-centered.

3/10/07, 9:19 AM  

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