March 25, 2007

A Biblical Critique of Debbie Maken's Book "Getting Serious about Getting Married" (part 14)

PART XIV: Chapter 13 - "Enlisting Agency" (And Playing Hard to Get)

In my review of Chapter 12 of Debbie Maken's book Getting Serious about Getting Married, I noted that Mrs. Maken rejects common approaches to dating. In Chapter 13 of her book, however, she proposes an alternative system of courtship (or dating) via enlisted agency. Specifically, Mrs. Maken wants parents to be more actively involved in finding a spouse for their daughters and in warding off undesirable suitors. Mrs. Maken believes enlisted agency will cause men to be more accountable to women; increase the likelihood of women meeting quality men; and reduce the heartbreak of failed relationships. There are, unsurprisingly, many assumptions put forth in Chapter 13 of Mrs. Maken's book that deserve a good measure of scrutiny.

Israelites in Love

There is a fad among many Evangelicals to push a "pattern" of "biblical dating" (i.e., courtship) which supposedly has support in the Scriptures. Mrs. Maken is no exception in this regard. Like many other pundits, she goes back to the Old Testament and presumes that it furnishes a suitable model for how Christians should find their spouses today. I find it ironic that Mrs. Maken and others can find no clear examples or commandments from the New Testament, the spiritual covenant to which Christians are bound (Heb. 8:1-13), for supporting their model of courtship. They cannot even find enough commandments given by God to the Israelites. Rather, their model of courtship essentially rests on incidental biblical narratives and certain exegetical penumbras (including fanciful inferences drawn from figurative language).

Consider Mrs. Maken's treatment of Abraham as a case in point:
"In Isaac's story, the Bible makes it clear that in his grief over Sarah's death, Abraham had somehow neglected his duty to help Isaac find a godly wife (Genesis 24). When Abraham realized it was time to take action, Isaac was forty years old. Abraham didn't wait on the Lord to provide a wife for his son; he didn't wonder whether it was God's will for Isaac to marry; he didn't worry that Isaac's marrying might convey that he was not fulfilled in God alone or that Abraham himself didn't trust God. No, Abraham realized that Isaac was lonely and needed a wife. So he set about planning thoughtful actions to find a wife for his son." (pp. 157-158)
The text doesn't say Abraham was neglectful in getting Isaac a wife. That is Mrs. Maken's addition to the passage. Moreover, the text doesn't say Abraham felt pity because of Isaac's loneliness or that Abraham was some firm believer in the "marriage mandate," per se. We need not conjecture about Abraham's motives. The Scriptures already furnish us with a valid reason for Abraham's attempt to find a wife from his home country for Isaac:
"The LORD God of heaven, who took me from my father’s house and from the land of my family, and who spoke to me and swore to me, saying, ‘To your descendants I give this land,’ He will send His angel before you, and you shall take a wife for my son from there." (Gen. 24:7, NKJV; see also Gen. 17: 15-21)
In other words, Abraham wanted to make sure God's promise through Isaac would come to pass. Here is something else to note about this narrative: It proves the courtship advocates to be inconsistent in their use of the Scriptures. They often insist that a male suitor must initiate a relationship with a female, but Isaac didn't do this. A wife was brought to him by a servant. On top of this, Isaac was forty-years old when he married (Gen. 25:20). Nothing in the Scriptures indicates God's displeasure either with Isaac or with Abraham about such a late marriage; on the contrary, God seems to be been quite pleased with the way Abraham comported himself (Gen. 24: 1b). This flies in the face of those such as Mrs. Maken who would shame young men into seeking marriage. Indeed, how does the phrase "wife of thy youth" apply to Isaac?

Debbie Maken's exegesis also fails to acknowledge the historical and culture milieu of the scriptures she cites. Mrs. Maken says, "Rebekah was under the protective covering of her parents, uncle, or clan. They were the ones making sure she was entering into a safe union" (p. 158). I grant that many Old Testament fathers probably felt protective towards their daughters. Yet we must also remember that in the nomadic societies of that time, women were considered to be subject to the authority of their fathers or any older male siblings in forming a marriage contract (Victor H. Matthews, Manners and Customs in the Bible (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1991), 21). We see this clearly in Laban's involvement in the negotiations for his sister's marriage (Gen. 24:28-61).

Mrs. Maken also says, "Abraham's agent knew he had to prove Isaac's worthiness and success to get Rebekah's family to agree to the match. Thus the flashy caravan and costly gifts" (p. 159). In actuality, the servant proved the worth of the household into which Rebekah would enter. Keep in mind that the goods shown to Rebekah ultimately came from Abraham's wealth, not Isaac's. It should not surprise us to see Abraham acting on Isaac's behalf, because unlike many modern households, the Old Testament patriarchs lived in extended families (Joel F. Drinkard, "An Understanding of Family in the Old Testament: Maybe Not as Different from Us as We Usually Think," Review and Expositor 98 (Fall 2001): 486-493). Mrs. Maken asserts, "The Genesis model of marriage intimates that the perfect pattern is for both the man and woman to leave their respective homes to make a new home together" (p. 163), but we see that such is not necessarily the case in the Bible.

The gifts to Rebekahs' family were not just to prove the worth of Abraham's household, either; they constituted a price that had to be paid to the bride's family. Such was the costume of the times. A woman was given to a male suitor in exchange for goods or services. This also explains Jacob agreeing to work seven years for Laban in return for obtaining Rachel as a wife (Gen. 29:18), an arrangement in which Jacob was considered to be part of Laban's household (Gen. 31:41) (David Noel Freedman, ed., The Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 4 (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 560-562).

Mrs. Maken misses the mark on the story of Ruth, as well:
"The Bible does include stories of women who didn't have a family agency working on their side, showing the vulnerability of flying solo. The story of Ruth demonstrates what happens to women who don't have a father figure to speak on their behalf. Ruth's mother-in-law, Naomi, an elderly women herself, hardly qualifies as an adequate covering with bargaining power because her idea of sending Ruth to the threshing room floor in the middle of the night was fraught with danger, physical harm, and costs to Ruth's reputation. There must have been a better way to remove the dibs of any other kinsman-redeemer than sneaking around in the dark, unguarded and vulnerable." (p. 160)
With respect to what Ruth did, we may question the wisdom of her coming to Boaz in the middle of the night, but there is one thing that Debbie Maken and other modern courtship advocates cannot do: question Ruth's initiative as a woman. Boaz did not say to Ruth, "Your proposing marriage to me is unladylike!" No, he extols her as a righteous woman with a reasonable request even after what she did (Ruth 3:10-11). The Scriptures do not condemn Ruth's behavior or any "passivity" or "lack of leadership" on the part of Boaz. We cannot but conclude that in the absence of familial authority, women are not obligated to be passive in dating and courtship.

This brings me to my next point: The way Debbie Maken and so many commentators treat the Scriptures reminds me of the Sunday crowds in family-style buffet restaurants. The restaurant crowds pick up a plate, mosey up to the pans filled with various foodstuffs, and pick whatever they want. If they don't like broccoli or spinach salad, they can move on and pile their plates full of fried chicken and mashed potatoes. Likewise, some warm up to the idea of a family member acting as a dating agency for them; men having to take initiative in approaching women; men not being able to interact with women unless they want to court for marriage; and men having to bestow gifts and make demonstrations of their financial success before they can spend any time with a woman. They may gleefully point to the Scriptures to make these things imperative. What many of these same individuals won't do is champion the notion of women being stripped of legal rights or social mobility; grown women having to answer to a father, much less a male sibling; or women having to live in extended families with in-laws. Yet these latter details are just as much a part of the Biblical narrative as the other ones.

Mrs. Maken can wax eloquent all day long abut how, in former times, familial agency limited the access men had to women, but she fails to acknowledge that it worked the other way as well--women's access to men was limited by their families. Family agency doesn't sound so wonderful when your relatives ward off someone you want to marry. And it doesn't sound appealing if you're an adult woman who cannot make decisions about your life because you are forced to live at home with your parents, even though Mrs. Maken recommends women do this very thing (p. 163). In the past, there were plenty of stories about women who married or even eloped just to get out of their parent's house and who ended up jumping from the proverbial frying pan into the fire. Let's not kid ourselves and look at days gone by through rose-colored lenses.

There also some things about the Old Testament that are an outright embarrassment to modern courtship advocates. In the Patriarchal age, marriage was about the consolidation of property. Bloodlines had to be established and a man had to ensure that his children were indeed related to him; male heirs were of primary importance (Matthews, 24). As for women, a great deal of emphasis was placed on their reproductive capacities. For instance, we see in the Old Testament narratives that when women were barren, they gave their handmaids to their husbands by which to sire children (Gen. 16:1-3; Gen. 30:1-13). We also see that much is said about a woman's virginity in the Old Testament, but nothing regarding the virginity of a man, who could have multiple wives, concubines, etc. and still be declared righteous in God's sight.

I am certain modern courtship advocates can find plenty of scriptural reasons to explain away polygamy and the looser sexual mores of the Old Testament. However, they will have some difficulty explaining away levirate marriages as a requirement (Gen. 38:8; Deut. 25:5); the treatment of women's sexuality as family property that can bartered away, even in cases of rape (Deut. 22:28-29); or endogamy (Gen. 24: 4) which would be required in some instances (Num. 36:1-13). Of course, such things present no problem to the rest of us who don't waste time trying to salvage Old Testament customs as a pattern for how Christians should date and marry (Heb. 8:1-13).

Other Exegetical Mishaps by Courtship Advocates

Courtship advocates also misuse other scriptures to justify their pattern of "biblical dating," especially to insist that men must take initiative in finding a spouse. For instance, many of them argue that men must initiate a relationship with a woman because Christ did the same for the Church. In Part 10 of my critique, I briefly touched upon the egregious error commentators make in assuming a one-for-one correspondence between a literal human marriage and the figurative marriage between God and his people. The matrimonial language used in the Bible to describe God and his people is metaphorical, not typological. Such language has a limited context and therefore a limited application. Indeed, I don't see too many courtship advocates affirming the right of a man to take vengeance on a woman who rejects him the way God will take vengeance on those who reject their Creator. Nor do I see people arguing that Christ is dependent upon the Church as a "helpmeet" the way some think men need women. Let's suppose I am wrong and that Christ's relationship with the Church represents an all-encompassing pattern for how men are to relate to women. Even so, we would still have to grapple with those scriptures that admonish people to initiate a relationship with God, not the other way around (Psalm 119:2; Heb. 11:6; Acts 17:24-27).

Apart from misusing figurative language in the Bible, courtship advocates often use Prov. 18:22 as a key proof-text: "He who finds a wife finds a good thing, and obtains favor from the Lord" (NJKV). Many assume this passage requires a man to do all the legwork in establishing a relationship with a woman. However, the passage is not a commandment but a general statement that one will be blessed through a wife, a promise which is not guaranteed in all cases (Prov. 12:4b). Moreover, the verb in this passage is "to find," not "to seek"; clearly, the stress is laid on the happenstance of obtaining a good thing, not in the effort expended to pursue it (Francis Brown et al., A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (London: Oxford, 1968), 592). Finally, there is no reason to limit the application of this passage to just one sex. I note that courtship advocates do not restrict the application of passages like Matt. 5:27-30 and Matt. 19:9 just to men. If women can be guilty of mental adultery like men, or if they can divorce and remarry for scriptural reasons like men, then surely they can blessed in finding husbands just as men can be blessed in finding wives.

Sometimes courtship advocates go to hilarious extremes in their misapplication of the Scriptures. Consider this example from the Boundless.org website:
"Maybe the most often overlooked example of this is in the very first relationship, Adam and Eve. Genesis 2:22 tells us that after God made Eve, he brought her to Adam. Now what we might have expected next was for God to say something: explain the purpose of marriage, assure Adam that after all the disappointment of not finding a suitable helper (2:19-20), here she was, encourage him about her willingness to marry. But God doesn't do any of that. He simply brings her to Adam and says nothing. The silence is deafening. The next move is all up to him.

"What does Adam do? He doesn't flirt with her. He doesn't ask her if she likes him. Instead, he shoulders the risk, steps up to the plate, and declares his intentions for the relationship. When Adam says in Genesis 2:23, 'This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh,' he's not just describing where she came from. And he's certainly not flirting, or putting out feelers. He's laying it on the line and declaring his intentions for marriage.
" (Michael Lawrence, "Real Men Risk Rejection," February 8, 2007, Accessed from www.boundless.org)
Don't make me laugh. The story of Adam and Eve is anything but an example of a relationship that many marriage mandators and courtship advocates promote. Adam did not decide one day that he was getting up in the years and had to "get serious about finding a wife." He did not look high and low to find a spouse. He did not ask God's permission to court Eve. He did not go through some silly process of "defining the relationship" (a concept bandied about by many courtship advocates). In fact, the relationship was already defined by the Almighty: "I will make him a helper comparable to him" (Gen. 2:18, NKJV). What was left for Adam to do? The only thing he could do was acknowledge Eve as his wife ("bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh"). If anything is to be carried away from this story, it is how far humanity has drifted in what it expects of men who would marry.

Most of our current expectations of men, no matter how Biblical they are, are at best remedial; they do not reflect the ideal of Eden. In fact, many expectations are not even Biblical at all, but cultural. We do well if we realize our expectations for what they are. We may balk at the idea of women asking men out for dates, but it was not too long ago that many balked at the idea of women wearing slacks or working in jobs traditionally held by men. Gender roles are not as static as we like to think they are. Many of us no longer live in nomadic societies or even agrarian ones. While the Bible is a necessary guide in how men and women should act, we need to avoid the kind of exegetical train wrecks in slow motion that seem to occur in the camp of the neo-traditionalists. Let's not misuse the Bible to justify our social and cultural biases.

A Covering for Women or Just a Cover-Up?

One recurrent theme throughout Chapter 13 of Debbie Maken's book is that women are especially vulnerable in the arena of dating and courtship and are in need of a "covering." Mrs. Maken says that "every culture before ours understood that women are vulnerable in the marriage-making process. As a result, past practices shielded and protected women" (p. 160). I suppose such protection made sense when women's opportunities were limited. But now women insist on being thought of as men's equals in so many endeavors. From what, therefore, do women need protection? Is it the consequences of their actions? If women are not adult enough to handle these consequences, then why should we allow women a place of prominence in society or maintain that they have a right to the same opportunities as men? Mrs. Maken recommends using a "strong agent" such as a father to act as a mediator in the courtship process. But if a woman needs a father to vet calls from male suitors, does she also need one to vet calls from male employers or colleagues? Part of adulthood is realizing that privileges come with responsibilities. Many women to need grow up in that regard and stop asking for preferential treatment when it suits their fancy.

To be honest, the only thing I think we are protecting is the inflated ego a woman might have. On page 169, Mrs. Maken notes, "The number one complaint of women in college today is that men no longer ask them out for dates." Why don't these women take a little initiative themselves? I suppose the prospect of asking a man out is unappealing to them because they fear rejection. In this regard, they seem more than happy to turn the matter over men. Suddenly, all the bravado about "grrl power," "breaking through glass ceilings," "beating the boys," etc. flies out the window and we find women tying themselves to the railroad tracks, crying out for Dudley Do-right. If no man asks a woman out, she can reason that men don't have a proper respect for their "Biblical mandate to lead" or that men are "not serious about marriage." If she asks a man out and gets rejected, she comes face-to-face with the reality that Madison Avenue, Hollywood, and the family bookstore haven't been exactly truthful about today's woman being smart, beautiful, and God's gift to men.

Rapunzel in a Six-Foot High Tower

Let's go further and ask ourselves just what problems is enlisted agency supposed to solve for women? Mrs. Maken's says the following:
"Because access to women is virtually unlimited today, men do not see the progression of time as a threat or even a reminder to make wise decisions sooner rather than later. Men have little incentive to marry. Every function normally associated with a wife has been fragmented: food comes from take-out, sex comes from just about anywhere (for those who disregard God's moral prohibitions), and companionship comes from friends and coworkers. All of this kills the sense of aloneness in young men and reduces us to a pattern of fellowshipping with one another until death do we part." (p. 164)
Later she remarks:
"This is the core of protracted singleness: Some men who should have been trusted the least now bear the responsibility for making marriage transpire. We must take back responsibility and encourage fathers to take the initiative to find suitable husbands for their daughters." (p. 166)
So how does asking your father to play the rottweiler on the front porch mitigate against men enjoying take-out food and the company of friends and coworkers? In other words, what compels a single man to give up the comforts of bachelorhood to face the drama of courting someone who props up the value of her own company through artificial scarcity? Consider this quote:
"Alas, when people complain of men not marrying (even they who are able), they forget how little women offer in exchange for all they get by marriage. Girls are so seldom taught to be of any use whatever to a man that I am only astonished at the numbers of men who do marry! Many girls do not even try to be agreeable to look at, much less to live with. They forget how numerous they are, and the small absolute need men have of wives; but, nevertheless, men do still marry, and would oftener marry could they find mates--women who are either helpful to them, or amusing, or pleasing to their eye." (Mary Haweis, The Art of Beauty (New York: Harper and Brothers, 1878), 262-263)
Was this penned by some cranky bachelor on the Internet? No. This is an excerpt of a self-improvement book written by a woman for women in 1878! I cannot but infer that men have been reticent to marry even in an age of courtship and strict sexual mores. If men weren't necessarily dying to tie the knot with women in 1878, it's certainly not surprising men are even more hesitant to marry today in the wake of feminism, gynocentrism in popular culture, and technologies which liberate men from needing someone to do domestic chores.

Apart from what men did in bygone days of courtship, what shall we say about the current practice of dating? What inferences can we draw from Debbie Maken's assertion on page 161 that our modern dating system came from the 1920s? Surely if the current practice of dating has been a problem, then we should have seen a precipitous decline of marriages in the 192os or a few decades afterwards. But we don't see that when we look at the numbers. In actuality, apart from the Depression Era, the rate of women marrying rose until the 1940s and declined sharply in the 1970s (Patricia H. Shiono and Linda Sandham Quinn, "Epidemiology of Divorce," The Future of Children 4, no. 1 (1994): 16). Mrs. Maken has overstated her case in pointing the finger at modern dating as the cause of the single woman's woes. A more likely explanation for the decline in marriage is a shrinking middle class (Blaine Harden, "Numbers Drop for the Married With Children," March 4, 2007, Accessed from www.washingtonpost.com) and the disruption of traditional gender roles.

At any rate, I believe Mrs. Maken reveals something about the mind of the typical contemporary woman:
"If a woman wants to be a lawyer, she can go to law school, take the Bar Exam, send out resumés to employers, and practice law. If a woman wants to run for office, she can put her name in the hat, run a good election campaign, and win the race. If a woman wants to travel to Australia, she can buy airline tickets, pack her bags, and go. In other words, she can do something to accomplish her goals. But if she wants to get married, she's told to sit like a bump on a log until the right Christian man finds her. I don't think so." (p. 165)
I have to admire Mrs. Maken for encouraging initiative in women, but how does using parental intermediaries address the problem of Christian women sitting like bumps on the log? Apparently, some women think they can push a button and make their dream husband appear the way they push buttons on a microwave, TV remote, cell phone, or iPod and get results. In the wake of expanded opportunities for women, it may be quite a shock for some of them to realize a man can actually deny them an opportunity and get away with it. No government program or grassroots movement can force men to love women. So before Mrs. Maken and her fans talk about "enlisting agency," maybe they should discuss how to get men to be interested in the first place.

From page 166 to 167 of her book, Debbie Maken discuss how using agency worked for her. In her own case, she employed the services of an Indian website:
"Through this agency, I first met my future mother-in-law. She was searching for a wife for her son, who also had a legal background. Once again, the Indian culture more closely resembles how culture in America and Europe used to be: Mothers are actively involved in finding mates for their children. Even though the custom would have been for my parents to write to them, I wrote to her myself, and she and my future father-in-law were so impressed that they asked their son to correspond with me. And the rest is history." (p. 167)
I am quite amused by this account of Mrs. Maken's courtship. Throughout her book she takes a firm stance on male leadership, and as we have noted in the chapter under consideration, she calls for "father figures" to acts as agents in behalf of marriageable women. However, we see that Mrs. Maken's own guidelines don't seem apply to her marriage. The very example of her own personal situation does not support her case, but undermines it. What we have instead is an example of two women taking initiative: one in behalf of her son, and one in finding a husband. What has "worked" for Mrs. Maken is dropping the trappings of female passivity, at least in the search for a spouse. This leads me back to Mrs. Maken's remark about women being able to find jobs, hold positions of power, be mobile, etc. and yet not being able to find a husband. Agency may work some in ferreting out irresponsible men, but to find the committed ones, women may have to get off their sofas and seek out Prince Charming--just as Mrs. Maken did.

One Size Doesn't Fit All

Courtship guidelines are like designer jeans--one size doesn't fit all. We can all congratulate Mrs. Maken for her success in finding a spouse. I certainly wish the best for her marriage. All the same, what has worked for her may not work for someone else. She ignores the serious challenges that face men and women in the courtship game, challenges that are not remedied by adding rules and referees.

In my review of Chapter 12, I mentioned women who complain about lost time spent on men who won't commit. In response to these women, I would counter that condemning single Christian men as heartless players who jump from one girlfriend to the next is neither an honest nor helpful approach. There are other reasons why a relationship with a man may not pan out for a woman. Here are a few that come to mind:

1. Christian women are dating non-Christian men and making themselves vulnerable. They then blame all men for the behaviors of those with whom they had no business being seen.

2. One party in a relationship may presume too much about where the relationship is headed and may not be straightforward about his or her expectations of the other party.

3. The man is not afraid of commitment but is intimidated by the high expectations a woman may have of him. He may turn his back on a given relationship to find someone else who is more realistic about what a relationship should entail.

4. The man senses that he is not really appreciated for who he is and that he is just a tool for the ambitions of the woman he is dating or courting.

5. The initial attraction faded and now there is no commonality between the parties in a relationship. Both parties did not bother to form a friendship before dating or courting, so they are left with the awkward remains of a fizzled romance.

6. One party realized after a while that the other party was simply not right for him or her in some other way.

Debbie Maken's model of courtship will not make these problems go away or keep a woman's time from being "wasted" on a relationship that doesn't lead to marriage.

Mrs. Maken's suggested schedule for moving a couple towards marriage is not helpful either. She says on page 175, "Personally, I think two dates are more than enough to scratch someone off the list, and I would suggest three months is ample time to elicit a proposal." Where did she come up with this hard and fast rule? What premarital counseling experts did she consult? I do not believe three months is a long enough time to get a sense for who a person really is. This is especially the case if one's access to the other party is limited by distance, schedules ... or courtship rules.

Another troublesome matter is Mrs. Maken's reference to 1 Cor. 7:36 as proof that fathers "are required to actively seek a marriage estate for their daughters" (p. 164). She earlier asserts on page 41 that the following verse (v. 37) applies to unmarried people. Both verses, in actuality, are addressed to the same individuals. If we follow Mrs. Maken view on v. 36, then we are forced to conclude from v. 37 that fathers have a right to forbid their daughters from marrying. I don't think Mrs. Maken would take that position, but she nonetheless shoots herself in the foot by failing to think through her arguments carefully enough. It is simply not wise to take scriptures out of context to make a requirement about enlisted agency.

Playing Hardball by Playing Hard to Get

I have touched upon how the use of enlisted agency does not guarantee the kind of successful outcomes that Debbie Maken promises, but I want to make some additional comments about Mr. Maken's notion that the access men have to women should be limited. Consider what she writes at the outset of Chapter 13:
"'Are you talking about arranged marriages? Are you crazy?', you ask. Stick with me here. That's not exactly what I'm proposing. I am proposing that limited and guarded access to women produces responsible, wise, and efficient decision-making from men, while unlimited and unchecked access produces complacency and generally unwise behavior--exactly where we are today. Anything that is too widely available is generally thought of as invaluable [sic]. Think about fashion trends. The latest things sported by celebrities is only popular when it's hard to get. Once everyone has one, no one wants it anymore." (p. 157) [emphasis orig.]
What a revealing quote. Why should women play hard to get? Because they want to protect their purity or because they are judicious in their choice of suitors? Well, Mrs. Maken says that a woman should do so because it inflates her value. Would this explain the manipulative behavior of many women? Do they have such a poor image of themselves that they believe the only way they can find a mate is by pretending that they are unapproachable? I wonder how much security and trust these women can have in their marriages when their husbands see them for what they truly are on a daily basis. Or maybe they don't care what their husbands think. I thought the way to increase one's desirability as a wife was by being a woman that demonstrates affection, interest, concern, and respect for a man. But apparently, Mrs. Maken feels that acting guarded and aloof is the way to a man's heart:
"If we want men to pursue us, they must feel alone and use that loneliness as an impetus to seek us out. When access to women is limited, men have the glory of having accomplished something by fighting for it or working for it. Their very nature and desire for conquest resists having someone who came too easily." (p. 170)
Mrs. Maken does not know men as well as she think she does. Most men I know hate drama and head games. Women don't do men any favors by being difficult to approach, and any barriers a woman places in the way of a relationship really only serves her agenda. Besides that, why should we presume that Mrs. Maken's advice is going to make much difference when many men already have their access to women limited in other ways? It is limited by feminism and its attendant attitude of androphobia which it engenders in women. It is limited by women snubbing decent men left and right in a chase after the banal and superficial things of this life. It is limited by women with ridiculous, unrealistic standards for whom they will marry. It is limited by women being so self-absorbed that they never stop to consider the existence of male human beings around them.

Mrs. Maken wants men to "feel alone" but some men find that even marriage doesn't change that feeling. There are married men who live in emotional isolation because their wives won't allow them to be open about their desires, dreams, fears, doubts, vulnerabilities, and human quirks. They are sadly confined to live up to some cardboard ideal of manhood that their wives have embraced. As for single men, more than enough of them have had plenty of time to adjust to the feeling of being alone. In fact, once these men discover that being single won't kill them and that they can live fulfilling lives without a wedding band on their finger, they no longer behave in a desperate manner around women. Not all single men come to this form of contentment, but those that don't are prisoners of their own device.

As it is, if women can limit the access men have to them, then perhaps men should do the same to women. Mrs. Maken says the following about her courtship guidelines: "I'm not fighting against romance; I am fighting against what I call reckless romanticism, the kind of romanticism where we think we will be overjoyed with spontaneous surprises, one after the other" (p. 169). Since she is a pragmatist, then neither she nor her fans should fault me for being too pragmatic or unromantic in my advice to men:

1. "Limit access" to your wallet: Men should not be obligated to pay for dates, especially at the beginning of a relationship. Some women may think that a man demonstrates his ability "to provide" by picking up the tab on dates. But how does a woman demonstrate her ability to be a wife and mother? Surely it isn't done by just coming to the front door looking pretty. If a man pays for a date on Friday, does his girlfriend cook for him on Saturday--or clean his apartment? Why should a man be constantly spending cash on a woman to whom he is neither engaged nor married? Indeed, given the attitude of many women, there is very little difference between dating them and hiring an escort for a social event. There is nothing wrong with splitting expenses or asking for separate checks on a date. Women should be open to the possibility, or at least they should demonstrate in some other tangible way that they know how to be giving individuals.

2. Determine if her "intentions are honorable": A man should probe the motivations of the woman in which he interested. Is she the kind of the person who will take him for better or for worse, in sickness or in health, and for richer or for poorer? Or is she just looking for a walking ATM--a male cardboard prop to fit in her dollhouse life of white picket fences, oversized vehicles, and pretty children?

3. Determine if she is "serious about marriage": Since women are notorious for initiating no-fault divorces, a man might want to consider a prenuptial contract. I understand that the some find this idea to be in poor taste, but if a woman has a right to protect herself from being defrauded before a marriage, a man has a right to the same after a marriage. At the very least, a couple should look into the possibility of a "covenant marriage." Someone might counter that men are the ones who to need to face danger and take risks. The Bible, however, does not counsel men to take risks with unscrupulous women (Prov. 21:19; Eccles. 7:26). A man has a right to throw out the bad apples the way women have. In short, when it comes to issues of trust, whatever measure a woman may use against men should be measured back to her. Fairness demands no less (Matt. 7:1-2).

More of the Same

I conclude my review of Chapter 13 by noting that, like previous chapters, it contains some sexist assumptions about men that truly need to be challenged. For instance, Mrs. Maken opines that her courtship system will "tame men to behave like men" (p. 143). This assertion reminds me of George Gilder and other socially conservative pundits who advance the idea that women have a civilizing effect on men. It's a spurious notion that was aptly branded and exposed as the "Gilder Fallacy" by Daniel Amneus in his book, The Garbage Generation, years ago. Amneus made this observation: "The key issue is not, as Gilder imagines, whether men can be induced to accept the Sexual Constitution which he imagines women try to impose, but whether women themselves can be induced to accept it" (Daniel Amneus, The Garbage Generation (Alhambra, CA: Primrose Press, 1990), 121). Despite what Debbie Maken might think, women need to tame themselves before thinking about taming men.

Mrs. Maken's sexist assumptions also include some double-standards. In one statement in Chapter 13, she mentions men who "cannot (or will not) make up their mind" about women on online dating sites (p. 172). She, of course, fails to acknowledge women who are also guilty in this regard, especially in light of their attention-seeking behaviors. Then there is this elitist remark from Mrs. Maken: "We often silently wonder, How did he get her? when we see an average, ho-hum kind of man with an outstanding woman. Rarely do we question how she got him. There aren't that many cocktail waitresses married to brain surgeons" (p. 173) [emphasis orig.]. I suspect, however, that the reason people don't wonder about how women get lucky is because they take the hypergamous behavior of women for granted, cocktail waitresses or no cocktail waitresses. I think this also explains Mrs. Maken dig at men "delivering pizzas at thirty-eight" (Ibid.).

In essence, whatever positives that could be gleaned from Chapter 13 of Mrs. Maken's book are outweighed by wrong-headed assumptions about women, men, courtship, and the Bible itself. I will also note that as bad as this chapter is in its treatment of men, the last full chapter of her book is even worse. It is to that part of her book that I will next turn my attention.

53 Comments:

Blogger wombatty said...

Anakin wrote:
--------------------------------
Rapunzel in a Six-Foot High Tower
[…]
In other words, what compels a single man to give up the comforts of bachelorhood to face the drama of courting someone who props up the value of her own company through artificial scarcity?
--------------------------------
Drama indeed – there’s enough of that as it is. Adding more will just give men further reason to ‘abandon the chase’ (or give chase where there is less of it).
As for the ‘artificial scarcity’, it always struck me as sad that Maken seems to think so little of women (and men) that she believes ‘hiding women’ is the key to success. I think it would far more effective for an independent, adult woman to say ‘No’ for herself to simple friendship or companionship (if she so chooses) instead of relying on others do to it for her. The former demonstrates inner strength, confidence and a sense of one’s own standards, which is very attractive. The former will come off as weak, insecure and possibly immature – not at all attractive.

Love the title of that section by the way; clever word picture.

Anakin wrote:
--------------------------------
In the wake of expanded opportunities for women, it may be quite a shock for some of them to realize a man can actually deny them an opportunity and get away with it.
--------------------------------
This is what I mean about ‘entitlement-minded women’; women who think they have a right to demand men’s romantic attentions. Well, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If women have the right to demand that men ‘step up to the plate’ and ask them out; then men have the right to demand that women ‘step up to the plate’ and accept an invitation to a first date; no refusals (for the first date) allowed. Of course, this is all very silly - but that’s the point.

I noted in my Amazon review of Maken’s book that it has an undercurrent of bitterness at the loss of some sort of ‘girl power’. I agree that this has probably to do with the fact that many women (especially these days) are simply used to ‘getting their way’ by virtue of being women. This is, in part, due to the changes in the legal system and culture wrought by feminism (there I go invoking a ‘bogie’!) whereby women are accorded privilege and preference simply by virtue of their gender, completely apart from any merit (e.g. affirmative action). Further, with sexual harassment law as it is structured, it takes little more than an accusation of misconduct to endanger a man’s livelihood and reputation. If a woman so chooses, she can bring charges based on no more than an overheard, off-color joke or a well-intentioned but unwelcome compliment; and the courts will grant her a full hearing simply because she is a woman. If you doubt that, just ask yourself if a man (‘girly’ though he may be) bringing such charges would be taken seriously.

On the flip-side, look at all the women who are not held accountable for sexually abusing their young charges (male and female). They are often ‘let off the hook’ simply because they are female (check out the ‘big list’ here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53859).

Are women simply extending these ‘conditioned expectations’ into the realm of personal relationships?

For the record, I am not painting all women with this brush. The government is responsible for much of this insofar as official policy appeals to the worst in human nature (envy, spite, revenge). However, women share blame for this particular predicament to the extent that they take advantage of the ‘illicit’ privileges afforded by such policies. I know women who wouldn’t sink to these depths regardless of the temptation to do so.

Anakin wrote:
--------------------------------
Playing Hardball by Playing Hard to Get
[…]
I wonder how much security and trust these women can have in their marriages when their husbands see them for what they truly are on a daily basis. Or maybe they don't care what their husbands think.
--------------------------------
I think the last sentence here is key. Mrs. Maken places very little value on what single men think, feel, etc. (despite her claims to the contrary). Reading her book and her blog, I get the sense that ‘unless they agree, men have little, if anything, to add to the discussion.’ Many of her followers proudly parade around with this mentality; just scroll through the comments sections of her posts. Whenever a guy disagrees, nine times out of ten, he is tarred as immature, irresponsible, enjoying extended adolescence, etc. I see no reason to believe that marriage would suddenly change this attitude. Chances are, such a woman will see value in what her husband says only insofar as it affirms her own perspective. It would be a most unpleasant experience to ‘lead’ such a woman.

Superb post Anakin, keep it up.

3/26/07, 11:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Anakin what can I say? Nice job!

I am not a fan of the courtship "method" but whatever floats someones boat...you know? Personally I think the courtship folks are confusing the cultural context in which Biblical folks lived with Biblical teaching. I also think the older a person gets the more unrealistic the courtship model becomes.

"Mrs. Maken's suggested schedule for moving a couple towards marriage is not helpful either. She says on page 175, "Personally, I think two dates are more than enough to scratch someone off the list, and I would suggest three months is ample time to elicit a proposal." Where did she come up with this hard and fast rule? What premarital counseling experts did she consult? I do not believe three months is a long enough time to get a sense for who a person really is. This is especially the case if one's access to the other party is limited by distance, schedules ... or courtship rules."

==I think the amount of time it takes someone to "get a sense for who a person really is" depends upon the person. I know people who get to know others quickly and, when these folks get married, it usually happens quickly. However there are many of us who do not warm up to others quickly. I generally don't tend to warm up to people quickly. There is simply no way I could know whether I wanted to marry someone within three months. If some woman wants me to commit within three months then she just needs to keep on walking (if you know what I mean).

One party in a relationship may presume too much about where the relationship is headed and may not be straightforward about his or her expectations of the other party.

==Sadly this is something I have had several experiences with. There was a lady in my office a few years ago who took a liking to me. However I was literally the last one in the whole building to know about(even my boss knew)! However I was clueless. Why? Because she acted towards me the same way she did towards everyone else. However when I found out, and made clear that I was not interested in her, she got really angry. Why? Because she thought I was leading her own! I had not even given the woman a second thought! I was just being nice to her like I was nice to every other woman in the building (I was one of only three men in the entire building of over 100 people). I could not believe her nerve. She actually got angry and, because of the up-roar, she quit her job. To my comfort though most of the other women in the building actually agreed with me. They agreed I had not done anything to lead this woman on.

The point of re-living that horrible memory is to say that women (and men) should not assume that simply because someone is nice to them that they are interested in them. This is not the only time something like this has happened to me and I know people, and have read plenty of others, it has happened to. So it does seem to be a problem. Maybe this is one reason some of Maken's disciples are upset/angry. They mistakenly think that because a guy is nice to them that he is interested in them and therefore they keep waiting on him to ask them out. It seems not to occur to them, nor to their leader, that maybe he is just being nice (there's a thing!).

I could type a lot more, and I am sure I will, but that is enough for now.

-Martin

3/26/07, 1:50 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Regarding Anakin’s mention of Michael Lawrence's Boundless article 'Real Men Risk Rejection':

Here is yet another example of such people culling a command for men out of a narrative account and completely ignoring what the passage would demand of women. To paraphrase, ‘Lawrence’s silence is deafening’. What then do we find by applying consistency? Again, to paraphrase Lawrence:

"What does Eve do? She doesn't flirt with him. She doesn't play hard to get and demand he prove his worth before deigning to grace him with her company. [Nor does she ask him what kind of ‘eunuch’ he is]. Instead, she simply accepts, apparently without question, his advances, steps up to the plate, and accepts his proposal for marriage.

So what commands for women can be gleaned from this narrative via ‘marriage mandate hermeneutics? Well, women should simply accept a man’s proposal for a date, and later for marriage, without objection. Period. After all, Eve’s silence is deafening in this passage, is it not? No doubts, concerns, objections; no anything - just simple and complete acceptance of Adam’s ‘proposal’.

How about it marriage mandators? No? I didn’t think so. When you guys are ready to apply Scripture consistently, maybe we can have more fruitful discussions.

Of course, as Anakin points out in regard to Adam, what else was Eve to do but acknowledge the role for her that God had already defined.

To quote Anakin, ‘…such things present no problem to the rest of us who don't waste time trying to salvage Old Testament customs as a pattern for how Christians should date and marry (Heb. 8:1-13).’

3/28/07, 8:44 AM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Anakin wrote:
Another troublesome matter is Mrs. Maken's reference to 1 Cor. 7:36 as proof that fathers "are required to actively seek a marriage estate for their daughters" (p. 164).

Good grief, this woman's exegesis is so inconsistent I just want to pull my hair out. She would fail instantly at just about any reputable school if she ever turned this book in as a project for a herminutics class. Her common response to the usage if 7:32 is that this passage is only limited to the "present distress" [v.26]. However, now she seems at liberty to use verse 36 when it helps her position. Double standards like this should tell you that this woman is deriving her theology from her emotions, not from the Bible.

3/29/07, 8:28 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

PC wrote:
---------------
Double standards like this should tell you that this woman is deriving her theology from her emotions, not from the Bible.
---------------
...and she has the nerve to complain about the 'outcome-based theology' of the GoS crowd.

3/29/07, 8:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PuritanCalvinist said...
Her common response to the usage if 7:32 is that this passage is only limited to the "present distress" [v.26]. However, now she seems at liberty to use verse 36 when it helps her position.

==Yes that kind of double standard is a big problem with her work. In fact such problems are one of the common markers of false doctrine, legalists, and false teachers. They are usually inconsistent and contradictory.

I like what John Murray said about this kind of thing. Speaking on the issue of marriage/singleness he wrote:

"On certain details of life and behavior the Lord has not bound us by law to one course of action rather than another. If we follow one course rather than the other we have not sinned, because we have not transgressed law...There is always the tendency to invest with the sanction of law certain courses of action which considerations of expediency may dictate. Consequently, courses of action against which there is no law are liable to be branded as wrong because they contravene the prescriptions of expediency. Expediency knows no law, and when expediency is erected into law the sphere of liberty is invaded and confusion of conscience results. It is a distinction of similar import that the apostle makes in this chapter" -"Principles of Conduct", pg71 (year 1957).

What Murray warned against is exactly what Debbie Maken, and others, is doing with the marriage mandate doctrine.

Maken's "expediency" is trying to help all the unhappy single Christian women out there get married. Maken's chosen method to achieve this goal is trying to shame and guilt Christian men into marriage. How does she go about shaming and guilting single Christian men into getting married? She says that willful singleness is wrong. She does not approve of a Christian man remaining single till later in his life nor does she approve of Christian men remaining single for their whole life. While she does allow for extreme exceptions she generally condemns the choice of those men who wish to remain single. She condemns their choice even if they remain pure. Why? Because, in Calvin’s words, they have denied a Christian woman a husband. Never mind that Scripture does not condemn men staying single for that reason or any other reason. Scripture only condemns unamarried people engaging in sexual activity (fornication).

Allow me to apply John Murray’s language to Debbie Maken’s teachings. Maken condemns a course “of action against which there is no law" (in this case that course of action is a Christian man willfully remaining single till "later" in life or for their whole life). Maken’s condemnation takes the form of the marriage mandate doctrine. To “prove” her doctrine Maken uses verses of Scripture out of context (ex: Prov 5), explains away other verses (1Cor 7), ignores other verses, and generally distorts the whole picture.

She has created a law that Scripture does not contain for reasons of expediency. What does that mean? Well in brief layman’s terms it means that she, in this area, is a legalist. Now Maken attempts to justify her legalism by citing selective, over generalized, historical examples. However such examples don't change the fact that her teaching is un-Biblical and legalistic.

To sum up:

Maken considers singleness to be sinful/wrong because it contravenes "the prescriptions of expediency" (ie...she thinks singleness gets in the way of all of these single women getting married).

3/29/07, 3:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There might be a moral obligation
for a men to marry a young maiden
and form a family in scripture.
(Maiden: young pure virgin nubile girl between the ages of 13-22, according to hebrew tradition, through the consumation of marriage she became a woman).
However, there clearly is no mandate to marry thirty something year old women who had multiple sex partners. The old testament would call these women whores, and rightly so. I know these are strong words, but hebrew tradition considers young unmarried women who sleep around for pleasure whores. There is no obligation to marry a woman who behaved like a whore, that's an act of benevolence.

3/29/07, 5:15 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon 3/29/07 5:15 PM wrote:
-------------------------
However, there clearly is no mandate to marry thirty something year old women who had multiple sex partners. The old testament would call these women whores, and rightly so. I know these are strong words, but hebrew tradition considers young unmarried women who sleep around for pleasure whores. There is no obligation to marry a woman who behaved like a whore, that's an act of benevolence.
-------------------------
There is a bit of truth here, but I think you might be taking it too far. Many people come to Christ after (and often as a result) of realizing the emptiness of decadent living. In fact, Christ's parable of the Prodigal Son is just such an account. The father welcomed his son back with lavish pomp and celebration. Christ's 'Lost Parables' in general demonstrate God's absolute elation at a sinner's repentance.

As His children, can we regard such repentance any less positively? This doesn't necessarily entail that such a person is entitled to marriage, but are such children of God to abandon hope of a Godly and fulfilling marriage? Are they to be regarded less than one who has remained pure until marriage?

The prodigal son. due to his guilty conscious, planned on accepting '2nd class status' as a servant in his father's house. His father wouldn't hear of it!. Again, can we do less?

No one is entitled to marriage, but neither should one be regarded as ineligible for marriage because of a sinful past. Indeed, what sins should be regarded as disqualifying one for marriage?

If God could so greatly use a man of Paul's past, can He not use a genuinely repentant woman with a 'slutty past' to provide a worthy partner for a Godly man?

A 'sexually loose' past will likely increase the chances for certain difficulties in marriage (and one should be aware of that and take it into consideration), but that is no reason to regard someone (man or woman) as unworthy of marriage.

All of that said, it is always important to observe genuine repentance for any sin in one's life.

3/30/07, 4:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Wombatty and Phillipa
First of all, I'm no expert on the bible but I've read the book.
In the bible, there is no specific obligation for a man to marry. But Makken is right about one point. The bible strongly suggest men to marry. It's not a must, but a should, an expectation, not an obligation. One can be a good christian man without marrying, but the bible recommends marriage
(no obligation though).
Now, who are these men to marry? The old testament clearly speaks about maidens, nubile girls, virgins. In the old testament, the man must be faithful to his wifes onces married, not before. The mandate for a girl to stay virgin is clear. Women who act like modern women do are considered whores in the old testament, and clearly no marriage material. All the quotations by Makken refer to young virgins, not to thirtysomething women with a promiscuous past, she is leaving the inconvenient part out. Yes, men should marry, but who they should marry is stated , and that is a maid.
I'm well aware that Jesus had protitutes among his followers. But Jesus message was about forgivness, love and second opportunities. "Go on and sin no more", he said to the adulterous woman.
If a christian man marries an old
(and yes, when women hit thirty they become old for childbearing, the primary goal of marriage)with a promiscuous past that's an act of love and mercy, very admirable, but it is not an obligation for a man to marry the woman who has wasted her youth by whoring around. If all these women were so serious about marriage, why didn't they marry as soon as secular law allowed it? I know no teenage girl who doesn't have two or three suitors her age or somewhat older.

3/30/07, 7:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nubile, by the way, only means "of marriageable age".
Traditionally, nubile is a girl who has reached puberty, that means 12 (catholic doctrine)13 (hebrew tradition)14 (protestant tradition) up to around 22, 24 years of age. And this is a historical fact. My grandmother by the way married when she was 15 my grandfather (26)and they were happy all their life.

3/30/07, 8:16 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Philippa wrote...
---------------------
Wombatty, your reply to Anon 5:15 is a great deal more charitable than mine would have been.
---------------------
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt; perhaps sometimes I try to hard =;-)

This kind of stuff really rankles me, though. It reminds me of the guy here some time back who was trying to making a case for the moral/spiritual superiority of men. What a load of...ahem...

Reading this present poster, I get the impression that he believes 'male whores' are more morally acceptable and thus more eligible for a 'meritorious marriage' than are 'female whores' who only qualify for a 'pity marriage' (an 'act of benevolence').

I think we would do well to remember Christ's words about 'grateful sinners' when he explained that those who have been (note the past tense) the greatest sinners often have more gratitude than those with more respectable pasts.

This is not to condone bad behavior (as Paul says in Romans), but gratitiude, which we are commanded to exercise, is a powerful motivator for holy living and is often more easily exercised by those with shameful pasts.

Also, we become new creatures in Christ upon repentance.

Good grief, if I don't stop, I'll ending up writing my own book - I'm usually long-winded enough as it is =;-)

Anon wrote:
---------------------
The mandate for a girl to stay virgin is clear. Women who act like modern women do are considered whores in the old testament, and clearly no marriage material.
[...]
If a christian man marries an old
(and yes, when women hit thirty they become old for childbearing, the primary goal of marriage)with a promiscuous past that's an act of love and mercy, very admirable, but it is not an obligation for a man to marry the woman who has wasted her youth by whoring around.
----------------------
And what of all the passages that refer to the foolish young men who follow the whore like a sheep to the slaughter?

I wonder; do you think that women should exercise an equal measure of caution with the men that come calling? Do you see the passages you cite as only applying to women?

If so, then you might have a problem; because to be consistent, the Proverbs that warn against the fool falling in with the whore would apply only to men. Thus, we would have to conclude that women are not bound by such passages. Of course, then you would end up with exactly what you are decrying, women with a less than ideal sexual past.

I think you are falling into the same trap as Maken often does. Namely, restricting the application of certain passages to only one gender simply because they are couched in gender specific terms when in fact such warnings are to be heeded by both genders

3/30/07, 9:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Philippa
We are talking about entitlements here. Women deserve second opportunities. But they are not entitled to it, like Maken believes. Maken think that's an obligation for men to marry women with a dubious past. All of Maken's quotes who state that men should marry tacitally refer to nubile girls. I personnaly believe nowadays women should not marry under the age of 16. However, they can start dating suitors at around 14, and marriage at around 20 is realistic. Secular law has to be observed, of course. I just pointed out that minimum marriage age according to catholic doctrine was 12 for more than a thousand years, until they gradually raised it during the last century (minimum age now is 16, although special permits for 14 and 15 year olds can be issued).
And let's talk about hebrew tradition. A man doesn't need to be a virgin when entering a marriage, but the girl clearly should be.

3/30/07, 9:15 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3/30/07, 9:23 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon wrote:
-----------------
And let's talk about hebrew tradition. A man doesn't need to be a virgin when entering a marriage, but the girl clearly should be.
-----------------
Instead, let us speak of Scriptural imperitives.

Hebrew tradition, as informative in bibilical studies as it might be, is not binding on Christians.

And what of the Hebrew tradtion of a widow marrying a brother-in-law? Being a widow, she was most likely not a virgin.

Hebrew tradtion is not a license for male promiscuity and hypocricy.

By the way, how many Herbrew traditions do you want to translate into commands? And by what criteria should we cull Hebrew tradition for such commands?

3/30/07, 9:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The imperative of virginity doesn't
extend to widows, obviously. But a widow who is looking to remarry should stay chaste until remarriage.
Both of you are avoiding my point:
If a 19 year old virgin girl wants a husband, the congregation should help her and if she is to the liking of an eligible man I understand that Maken believes he has the duty to marry her. However, how Maken believes that this "duty" extends to "old" (old for a woman to marry, that is, at 30 a person is still young, and for men it's a great age to marry) promiscuous women is beyond my understanding. Men simply don't have the duty to marry these kind of women, but if they do anyway its shows their great heart and the fact that they are in love.
But a men's DUTY has ceased at this point. And it's essential to consider hebrew tradition and history if you want to understand the bible's meanings, books have to be read taking under consideration the circumstances, if you really want to understand them.

3/30/07, 9:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To put it in very simple words.
Maken says:"men should marry"
but ignores the female's duty
"women should marry virgin and of nubile age"
If women don't keep their part of the deal, men don't have to keep theirs.

3/30/07, 10:26 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon wrote:
-------------------------
Both of you are avoiding my point:
[...]
And it's essential to consider hebrew tradition and history if you want to understand the bible's meanings, books have to be read taking under consideration the circumstances, if you really want to understand them.
-------------------------
I am avoiding nothing. You have provided no biblical justification for your belief that men are not obligated to stay sexually pure outside of marriage. In fact militates against such a position. Jesus taught that to fantasize about fornication/adultery is spiritually equivalent to the deed itself (though the temporal consequences differ). If we (men and women) are to abstain for imaginary sexual impurity outside of marriage, then we are certainly obligated to exhibit such purity in our behavior. Interestingly, this passage specifically targets men, though it clearly applies to women as well - or do you disagree?

In any case, NT passages are more relevant to Christians than are the OT passages.

I already acknowledged your point about the importance of considering Hebrew tradition in biblical hermeneutics – but that does not make such traditions binding on Christians. I repeat my question: Which Hebrew traditions are to be regarded as commands and how are they to be culled from the text?

3/30/07, 11:06 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Philippa wrote:
-----------------------
Wombatty,

That was an excellent post. :)

[...]

Anyway, I see that Wombatty has answered you with another very good post, so I'll leave it there.
-----------------------
Thank you for your kind words Philippa =;-)

3/30/07, 2:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The bible teaches us through example. All the women featured in the
holy scriptures married young, therefore it is reasonable to conclude that’s the ideal.
If the ideal should be otherwise, the bible would be full of women who married around thirty, but I can’t find any.
Let’s talk about statistics. Around 45% of women in America over 30 are single and most of them probably never will marry. Ignoring sound advice doesn’t help, neither does wishful thinking. In the older days, mothers would urge their daughters to marry young, knowing that female beauty is magical but very short lived. Now most “Christian mothers” advice their daughters in their late teens to whore around (to “discover themselfes”) until they are around 30 and consider men between the ages of 24-30 who make serious marriage offers old creeps (maybe the mothers are envious and believe the young men should date them). I’ve seen it myself. Christian guys who are in their early thirties looking for a nice good christian wife. Instead of introducing to them to nice, previously unmarried girls in their twenties the congregation expects them to marry thirtysomething digvorced mothers. The congregation doesn’t help these guys to start their own families, and if one of these thirtysomething guys actually woos a twentysomething girl he faces animosity and open hostility from the congregation. Sorry, contemporary church doesn’t help young men to find an appropiate partner to start a family with but pushes them into marriage with divorced or old women. I consider myself christian, but feel betrayed by most protestant churches and are considering to become catholic. And the thirties are not the new twenties for women, because women have biological clocks and you can’t cheat nature. The bible is aware of human nature, and therefore urges women to marry young, through examples in scripture. The bible teaches through examples, depicting the ideal family.

3/31/07, 12:29 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Anon 3/31/07 12:29PM,

First of all, just because the Bible records something that happened does not mean that it is endorsing it, or even making it a commandment. This is something Debbie Maken herself admits. You have to show how you know which scriptures are descriptive and which scriptures are prescriptive. Otherwise, you are stuck with the example of Lazerus, Mary, and Martha. That means that the Bible tells you by example that you must not get married, and live with your family the rest of your life.

As far as statistics go, I think you are doing newspaper exegesis. You are interpreting the Bible through the statistics rather than interpreting the statistics through the Bible. I think Martin's quote from John Murray applies here, since what you are saying is that morality is dependent upon what is expedient to our culture. Hence, your viewpoint knows no law.

Secondly, I know of no Christian mothers who tell their daughters to whore around. None in either congregation I attend. I also know of no one who considers it unaccepable for someone in their thirties to want to marry someone in their twenties. You say you have seen it. Does "it has been my experience that" equal "it is always the case that" or "it is mostly the case that?" Obviously not.

Thirdly, I find it amazing that you are considering the Roman Catholic Church over this. Roman Catholicism is an apostate form of Christianity. While there may be some people in it that are Christians, the teachings of the church are apostate. In other words, you are willing to sacrifice purity of doctrine for marriage. You are willing to say the scriptures are insufficient as our rule of faith, that the sacrifice of Christ doesn't perfect anyone and must be represented hundreds of times [and even then I still might go to hell], that it is acceptible to bow down before statues, pray to Mary, and contact saints by prayer [contra Deuteronomy 18:11], and that you must believe that Mary was bodily assummed into heaven just as much as you must believe in the divinity of Jesus, all because you want to have a spouse??????????

The only thing I can say is that I rest my case at this point. Apparently the mandatory marriage movement even makes finding a spouse higher than having the truth.

3/31/07, 7:53 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon wrote:
------------------------
Now most “Christian mothers” advice their daughters in their late teens to whore around (to “discover themselfes”) until they are around 30 and consider men between the ages of 24-30 who make serious marriage offers old creeps (maybe the mothers are envious and believe the young men should date them). I’ve seen it myself.
------------------------
I suppose this all depends on your definition of 'whore around'. I have NEVER seen or heard of a Christian mother urging her daughter to engage in promiscuous behavior. If on the other hand, you mean 'date around' and figure out what kind of guy you're interested in', this hardly qualifies as 'whoring around'.

If this is something you see in your church on a regular basis, may I suggest you find a church that has something to do with the Bible?

Anon wrote:
------------------------
Christian guys who are in their early thirties looking for a nice good christian wife. Instead of introducing to them to nice, previously unmarried girls in their twenties the congregation expects them to marry thirtysomething digvorced mothers.
------------------------
Why, pray tell, should a girl in her twenties not prefer a man closer to her age? Is there something wrong with this? What entitles you to such a woman? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, but you certainly have no 'divine right' to it. Why weren't you looking for such a woman when you were that age?
Further, your obvious distaste for 'thirtysomething divorced mothers' is a bit telling. Apparently, you aren't interested in what you might see as a 'used up woman'. Well, given your apparent belief that you have a right to 'whore around' yourself just because you're a man, mightn't you be a bit 'used up' yourself? Why should a twentysomething young lady be interested in you?

I guess you didn't need a 'Christian mother' to advise you to whore around (to “discover yourself”) until you are around 30', you simply think you have a right to do so.

Where do you get off complaining about a woman 'whoring around' until age 30, only then to seek marriage? In your post, you're complaining about 30-something men who have apparently (assuming they believe as you do) done exactly that.

Further, if you believe that you have the right to 'whore around' because you are a man, who are you 'whoring around' with but women? Perhaps if it weren't for such men as yourself, the 30-something women you are complaining about wouldn't be 'used up' divorced mothers.

Lastly, given your affinity for teasing 'commands' out of mere examples in Scripture, what do you think of polygamy and bigamy? How about, 'going in to another woman' (e.g. Abram with his maidservant Hagar) to sire children? There are many, many examples of men (even Godly men) who behaved in such a manner. Do you also read this a lesson for your own conduct? Have you taken it to heart?

I am certainly in no position to judge you, but your posts leave me with the impression that you are no more Christian than the "Christian" mothers you claim urge their daughters to 'whore around'.

I would suggest that not only do you not deserve a 'nubile young 20-something', you don't deserve a Christian wife of any age. You don't even deserve one of those 30-something divorced mothers you complain about.

4/2/07, 3:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Wombatty:
You presume way too much. I'm barely in my middtwenties and have a nice 16 year old girlfriend, we are deeply in love and intent to marry. She is catholic by the way.
After finishing University my long time fiancée broke up with me because she loved another men. So I returned to my Lutheran church to look for a wife. My pastor, knowing that I had broken up with my Jewish girlfriend, tried to engage me to some girls of the congregation. The first girl was a 26 year old single mother, and the second was a 28 year old divorced woman with two kids. I don't have anything against women with children per se, but for a young men who is looking to rise and found his own family and children these partners are simply completely unsuitable. However, there was a nice 18 year old girl among the congregation which I fancied. When we started dating, her parents complained about me and the pastor himself asked me if I was some kind of pedophile, I heard some nasty comments from some of my fellow christians, although a few were supportive. In the end, the parents succesfully drove my love away from me. But there is a happy end to this story. Relatively close to my home, there is a McDonalds close to an all female catholic high school. There I met my actual girlfriend, a beautiful 15 year old sophomore. As soon as she became 16 (legal age of consent in this state)we started dating, and her parents instead of rejecting me wanted to know me better and have acdepted me. The only condition for me to marry her in a few years is that our children must be baptized catholic.
And I'm not the only one with these kind of stories. Because I'm a runner I have some methodist friends who are between 28-34 years old. They haven't been married before but would like to now, but they only meet divorced women with kids and single mothers in their church, and face hostility form the congregation when they try to go younger. There is nothing inherently wrong with these women, but for young men who want to raise their own families with own kids they are just a terrible match. A 31 single never married man has nothing in common with a 31 year old single mother or divorced woman with kids, except age.
To your questions now. Most men are not mature enough to marry before they reach their late twenties, so marriages between men around 30 and women in their early/middtwenties and even late teens should be the norm.
2. Poligamy is outdated, however in some cases (where most young men are killed in war by example)can be justified.
3. Female and male sexuality are not the same, homosexuality and female adultery where capital offenses (because they destroy the family), while lesbianism is not even a sin (think anot the 800 wifes of Salomon).
4. A mother who tells her daughter to date (and tacitally to have sex)with a lot of young men to "know herself better" instead of marrying is encoraging her to "whore around".
What really makes me mad is that protestant congregations somehow expects that for young, previously unmarried men who are looking to raise their OWN FAMILY single mothers and divorced women somehow should be suitable marriage prospects. They have nothing in common except age.

4/2/07, 8:15 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4/2/07, 8:53 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4/2/07, 8:56 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon:

As to my presuming too much, I was merely judging you what you said and you did not mention your age. In any case, your age is irrelevant to this discussion. You repeatedly all but justifiy male promiscuity and codemn female promiscuity. Your reasons for doing so smack of selfishness and Godless pragmatism.

Anon wrote:
----------------------
3. Female and male sexuality are not the same, homosexuality and female adultery where capital offenses (because they destroy the family), while lesbianism is not even a sin (think anot the 800 wifes of Salomon).
----------------------
Female and male sexuality do indeed differ, but God's requirement of sexual purity applies to both sexes.

Are you claiming that male adultery does not destroy marriage? Do you suppose that a man has the right to commit adultery? After all, it wouldn't destroy his family, would it?

Lesbianism is not even a sin?!?!You need to read your bible a bit more often. Here's Romans 1:26-27:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Note that female and male homosexuality is directly compared here and the context is such that both harvest the same consequences and are clearly condemned.

Anon wrote:
----------------------
4. A mother who tells her daughter to date (and tacitally to have sex)with a lot of young men to "know herself better" instead of marrying is encoraging her to "whore around".
----------------------
Talk about presuming too much! A mother who encourages her daughter to date is not necessarily encouraging premarital sex.
You stated that you have had more than one girlfriend; have you thus ben 'whoring around'?

Anon wrote:
----------------------
What really makes me mad is that protestant congregations somehow expects that for young, previously unmarried men who are looking to raise their OWN FAMILY single mothers and divorced women somehow should be suitable marriage prospects. They have nothing in common except age.
----------------------
What, then, would a guy who has not kept himself sexually pure (and thus might have children himself) have in common with a woman who has? Your hypocricy is palpable (as you earlier claimed that a man needn't be a virgin upon marriage while demanding it of women).

God demands sexual purity outside of marriage for both men and women. Period. You are seriously misguided if you think otherwise.

4/2/07, 8:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Female and male sexuality do indeed differ, but God's requirement of sexual purity applies to both sexes."
I agree with that, however I believe that female promiscuity is worse because it directly threatens the stability of the family. Before the new testament adulterous women were stoned, by the way.
I'll try to make my main point even more simple. Protestant congregations are expecting young men WITHOUT CHILDREN WHO WANT TO HAVE THEIR OWN to marry WOMEN WHO ALREADY HAVE CHILDREN, and are very hostile to them if they try do date younger women who still haven't conceived. This is what really bothers me. It would be nice if a future wife is virgin, but it's not a requirement. However, most men don't really want to raise children who are not his own.

4/2/07, 9:19 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon wrote:
----------
I agree with that, however I believe that female promiscuity is worse because it directly threatens the stability of the family. Before the new testament adulterous women were stoned, by the way.
-------------
You believe wrong. Can you please explain to me how an unfaithful wife/mother is more destructive to the stability of a family than an unfaithful husband/father?

Have you even read the Old Testament? God commanded ALL alduterers to stoned to death - both men and women

4/2/07, 11:15 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon:

For instance, Leviticus 20:10:

" 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

or Numbers 15:23-24:

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

4/2/07, 11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4/2/07 8:15 AM :

"I'm barely in my middtwenties and have a nice 16 year old girlfriend, we are deeply in love and intent to marry.

==Just a question: Why can't you find someone closer to your own age and life experience to date?
Are there no ttractive "CHRISTIAN" women your age in your area?

You said:
When we started dating, her parents complained about me and the pastor himself asked me if I was some kind of pedophile, I heard some nasty comments from some of my fellow christians, although a few were supportive

==The complaint of these parents raises red flags in my mind. What did the parents of the 18 year old complain about? Was it just your age? Or something you were saying/doing? The question of your pastor causes even more red flags. Why was your pastor asking if you were a pedophile? Was his question caused by the fact that you seem to be courting children and not adults? Yes, a 16 year old is still a child and a man in his mid-20s is an adult. Your pastor's question really cocerns me and maybe, just maybe, it should cause you to take a step back and re-examine the ""women"" you are going after. A 16 year old is still a child. If you are interested in dating/marrying a younger woman why not look at those who are 18-22?

Personally I think you need to find you some woman nearer to your own age and life experience. I am 32 and I would never consider dating or marrying any woman under the age of 25. In fact I would rather someone closer to my age than that (28-34).

You said:
As soon as she became 16 (legal age of consent in this state)we started dating, and her parents instead of rejecting me wanted to know me better and have acdepted me. The only condition for me to marry her in a few years is that our children must be baptized catholic.

==Wow, even more red flags. So, let me get this straight, you are willing to have your children "baptized" into a "church" that does not believe in the Biblical way of salvation (by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone) just so you can marry this girl? Where are your priorities my friend? Are your priorities women or are your priorities God? If you are willing to compromise important truths in order to get married you need to re-think your priorities.

Btw...I put baptized in quotes because in Scripture baptism is of believers (not infants/babies) and it is by immersion.

Sorry to be so blunt but I have been following this discussion and had to chime in.

4/2/07, 1:09 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon wrote:
-------------------
"I'm barely in my middtwenties and have a nice 16 year old girlfriend, we are deeply in love and intent to marry.
-------------------
I have to add my voice to Martin's here. Why have you had such difficulty attracting a woman your own age? Given all of the questions and red-flags raised by others you mentioned, might it be that you, by your conduct, have rendered yourself unattractive to more mature women? Some of your statements here lend support to that possibility.

I'm almost 34 and, like Martin, I couldn't date a woman younger than 24-26. In all likelyhood, I would have little in common with ta woman younger than that. In any case, I would have much more in common with a 35 year old single mother.

Being in your mid-twenties and dating a 16-year old, I have to question your own maturity. What does a guy out of high school for a number of years and (presumably) gainfully employed or in college have in commone with a sophomore in high-school? I just cannot see it; high-shoolers live in a completely 'different world'. That's not bad, it's just what is; they have yet to mature.

I've known, and known of, a few guys in their late 20s-early 30s who chase high-schoolers and girls a bit older (early 20s at the oldest). Putting the 'creepiness factor' aside, the guy I knew (age 37) basically had a 'high-schoolish' mentality himself. Thus he was able to identify with and 'click' with high-school girls. It seems to me that it would be extraordinarly difficult to form an intimate (not sexual) relationship with someone not on 'your own level'. Either your girlfriend is exceptionally mature or you may well have some growing up to do.

Earlier, Anon wrote:
---------
I agree with that, however I believe that female promiscuity is worse because it directly threatens the stability of the family.
-----------
Again, this point just baffles me. Regardless, you might wish to consider that God made men the head of the household. This means the man bears far greater burden of responsibility than does the wife. If the man is unfaithful to his God, his wife and his children (i.e. his vows) it logically follows that the consequences for his abdication will be greater. That's not to say a wife's unfaithfulness is without consequence; only to put it into relative terms.

If you doubt this read the first few chapters of Genesis. As grevious as Eve's sin was, God cursed all of Creation for Adam's siin, not that of Eve. In other words, Adam's sin had far greater consequence than did Eve's. Adam was given headship of his (and the human) family and of all of creation.

As goes the captain, so goes the ship.....

4/2/07, 2:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the man who wants to marry a younger woman is immature, than the man who wants to marry an older woman (or feels more in common with her) is in need of a mommy.

4/2/07, 3:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First, I would like to point out that anonymous 3:21 was not me, but I appreciate his support. Second, I'm 24, so I'm only 8 years older, this is not a father-daughter relationship. Third, you are in your early thirties and expect dating 25 year olds, so essentially you are seeking the same age difference I have right now. The 18 year old lutheran girl was a hs senior, and I was a 23 year old working young men right out of college, and their parents thought that a teenage girl still in school shouldn't date anyone who was more than two years older than her and in any case shouldn't be dating a professional young men.
A woman who commits adultery destroys the existing family, whereas a man can form a second family in a different city with a different woman, without fatally affecting his previous family. Also, a woman whoring around deceives the husbands paternity, whereas this isn't the case if the man has another woman.
I love my actual girlfriend, so I'm willing to agree to her parents condition. You do not choose who you fall in love with, and it's not ilegal. She approached me asking her to buy a meal and we started talking and became friends (she thought that I was 20, by the way, but I told her the truth). If my kids still want to become lutherans, they can choose so later in life.
I just feel so betrayed by my church.

4/2/07, 5:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4/2/07 5:02 PM

I'm 24, so I'm only 8 years older, this is not a father-daughter relationship. Third, you are in your early thirties and expect dating 25 year olds, so essentially you are seeking the same age difference I have right now.

==The issue is not the age difference. The issue is that, in the case you present, one is a adult (20 something) and the other is a child (15-16yrs old). That is the problem. Besides there are BIG differences between a 25 year old and a 16 year old.

1. A 16 year old is a child, a 25 year old is a adult.

2. A 25 year old is, in theory, more mature than a 16 year old.

3. The differences between a 25 year old and a 32 year old are not as much as between a 16 year old child and a 20something year old man.

The 18 year old lutheran girl was a hs senior, and I was a 23 year old working young men right out of college, and their parents thought that a teenage girl still in school shouldn't date anyone who was more than two years older than her and in any case shouldn't be dating a professional young men.

==I agree with her parents. A teenager who is still in high school should not be dating an adult.

A woman who commits adultery destroys the existing family, whereas a man can form a second family in a different city with a different woman, without fatally affecting his previous family.

==Not one bit of that is true. In fact I know from personal experience that what you have said here is not true. My natural father destroyed our family by doing the very thing you suggest a father can do "without fatally affecting his previous family". I am also aware of other families that have been torn apart by adultery on the part of the husband.

You do not choose who you fall in love with, and it's not ilegal.

==Either way there are other issues at play here such as morality, maturity, and life experience.

You "CAN" choose who you fall in love with. We humans have free-moral agency and are responsible for our choices.

If my kids still want to become lutherans, they can choose so later in life.
I just feel so betrayed by my church.


==So you are still going to join and raise them in a "church" that does not stick with Scripture?

4/2/07, 7:51 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon:

I'll just second Martin's most recent post.

There is a world of difference between two differently aged adults dating and an adult and a child doing so.

A man who abandons his first family to start another one in a different town doesn't destroy his first family?!?! Are you trying to say that ABANDONMENT is not destructive?

Your persistent attempts to rationalize, excuse and otherwise justify unfaithfulness on the part of men is very telling. Is your girlfriend and her family aware of your beliefs in this regard? Perhaps it is OK with all of them if you cheat on her after marriage and children, so long as you move to a different town and leave them to pick up the pieces. After all, you might be busy starting another, perhaps also ill-fated, family.

I can just hear it now,

No, little Johnny, Daddy's not coming back. But everything will be all right because he has moved to a different town so he can be someone else's Daddy. He just didn't want to be your Daddy anynore.

Chew on this for a while:

1 Timothy 5:8 -

If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


The context of this chapter concerns providing for one's elders (widows and such) and not abandoning them, but it no doubt applies to your own wife and children as well. And provision certainly extends beyond the financial (i.e. child-support or alimony).

4/3/07, 1:51 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

By the way, Anon, our own culture's experience refutes your idea on this. Just look at the sorry state of much of black America today, particularly in the inner city. There, fathers abandoning their families is an epidemic and it has had grave consequences.

Fatherlessness is THE leading factor, by far, in promiscuity, crime, poor academic performance, and other self-destructive behaivours in children. Fathers leaving their families is profoundly destructive to both those families and society at large.

4/3/07, 2:45 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon wrote:
-----------
Also, a woman whoring around deceives the husbands paternity, whereas this isn't the case if the man has another woman.
-----------
This bit of silliness (if I may call it that) puts you in the awkward position of believing that it's ok for a man to aid his mistress in decieving her husband's paternity while believing it's immoral for her to let him do so.

Of course, this line of reasoning assumes the mistress is also married. Or would traipsing off with another man's wife be 'a bridge too far', even for you?

4/3/07, 8:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Wombatty:
I'm presuming that he is cheating with an unmarried woman, or maybe even a prostitute (the real ones).
No man should cheat with a married woman, that is a grave sin. I love my girl btw and do not intend to cheat on her. And we won't marry until she finishes High School. If the law says 16 is fine, that's good enough for me (age of consent laws tend to be overprotective anyway, and Christians reach adulthood with confirmation, that is usually at 14-15.)And here what bothers me, instead of blessing me or wishing me the best you start criticizing me. She is a beautiful, mature,kind, innocent girl, you should be happy for me.

4/3/07, 10:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And here what bothers me, instead of blessing me or wishing me the best you start criticizing me. She is a beautiful, mature,kind, innocent girl, you should be happy for me.

==She is also a 16 year old child. Therefore she is only as mature as a 16 year old child can be. Why would anyone here have anything good to say about a 20 something year old man dating a 16 year old child? Please give me one good reason. And why do you keep mentioning the legal age of consent? And why do you assert that a law meant to protect children from sexual predators is "overprotective"?

No man should cheat with a married woman, that is a grave sin.

==Any sex outside of marriage (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc) is a grave sin and will cause a person to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 21:8, Gal 5:19-21). That goes for men and women.

4/3/07, 10:59 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon:

Whether you plan on cheating on her, and with whom, is absolutely irrelevant. How many people do you suppose walk down the aisle planning such treachery?

The problem for you (or, rather for your future wife and/or children) is that you have already justified, in your mind and heart, any future decision you may make to cheat on her. In other words, you have reserved said 'privelege' for yourself.

All you need is a reason to 'whore around'; and given your mentality, you won't need much of a reason. After all, you can just leave town and everything will be just fine. How neat and tidy!

Isn't there something in the bible that says,

As a man thinks in his heart, so is he?

Why, I think there is. You might think about that a bit.

Philippa said...
------------------
She is a beautiful, mature, kind, innocent girl, you should be happy for me.

Well, I'm afraid I find it pretty hard to feel happy for her, going out with someone who holds the kind of views you've expressed here.
------------------
Amen! That sums it up rather nicely, doesn't it?

4/3/07, 12:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Phillippa: I'm not trying to bother anyone,I'm just telling my personal love story, in order to substain my main hipothesis: if women would marry when they are at their peak of attractiveness (around 20), they wouldn't be complaining about not finding a husband when entering their twilight years (above 30 for WOMEN, men have 10 to 15 years more time).
And I keep mentioning age of consent laws because if the law says she is a young woman, why do you consider her a child? And through confirmation a person reached adulthood in his congregation, and thus was allowed to marry. (before the state and the church separated).
How does this relate to Maken's book? Easy: there is no mandate in the bible to marry, and even if there were one it refers to young virgins of marriageable age (15-25)and not to women in their twilight years who already have children from other men and consider tyhemselfes some kind of "born again virgin". It just annoys me seeing all these thirtysomething women in church with children expecting that never before married men should somehow marry them, and finance her offspring.
these men want to create their own families, and the church works against their interests, by disencoraging and shaming relatively young men (27-34)to date young, still available girls.
As a Christian, you should pray for our happiness (refers to me and my girlfriend). I also wish you well and maybe one day you will understand the meaning of true love. For me, it's just much easier to create a strong bonding with a young girl than with one my age. And no, I will not cheat on her, I just have more compassion for my fellow men who have cheated.

4/3/07, 3:27 PM  
Blogger PuritanCalvinist said...

Anon,

As someone who would agree with you that there is nothing Biblically wrong with an 18 year old dating someone in their mid twenties, I likewise find your comments *very* disturbing.

First of all, female promiscuity and male promiscuity are both condemned in the Bible. In fact, so much so, that a man who commits fornication is commanded to marry the person with whom he fornicates:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

So, no, it is not ok for men to go sleeping around. Just the opposite. If that happens, a man must marry her so that she will be taken care of. In other words, the Bible holds the man accountable for his actions just as much as the woman. This is because a woman who is on her own and pregnant is very, very vulnerable. The sad thing is that it was the man's actions that made her such. That is the wisdom of our creator. He going to require that a man not leave a woman in that condition. Of course, I can only hope for the day when this will happen. I think far less promiscuity would happen if this were civil law.

Second, while I would be willing to go as far as a 25 year old dating an 18 year old, I am not willing to go as far as a 16 year old dating a 25 year old. You are talking about a girl who is in her mid teens. My mother got married when she was nineteen, and she says she regrets it. She wishes she would have waited another year or two to get married. Yet, you are talking about someone who is not even eighteen yet. Do you honestly think that she is going to be ready for marriage that young?

At least if you were dating an eighteen year old, you could conceivably be married in two years. However, even if you wait until she is 18 to marry your girlfriend [in which case, you would be 27] how do you know that she would be able to handle the responsablities given to her? Don't you think that the expectations between an 18 and 27 year old might be slightly different? This much of an age difference just has problems written all over it. There are just too many questions left unanswered by this situation.

Thirdly, your comment about age of consent laws being over protective is silly. We have those laws for a reason. While there are, indeed, some philosophical problems with the laws [for instance, the assumption that, in every case where the law is broken, it is only the adult's fault], the idea behind the law is sound. Imagine if we had no age of consent laws, and you could have relations with an 8 year old. Such is absolutely sick, but why not do so? Where do we draw the line?

The reality is that a woman who has not graduated from High School is in grave danger if she gets pregnant from a man. She has no education to support herself, and is, more than likely, not going to be able to take care of a child. On top of that, sexuality is emotional as well as physical. Emotional ties are linked in sexual union. Do you honestly think that a person who is 16 could handle that?

All in all, I would say that the laws are right to have the age of consent where they are. While fornication is Biblically wrong, and I believe that people must marry immediately if they have done it, the law is wise to not allow sexual contact with someone in the position of a 16 year old.

Finally, I agree with Philippa. If you are saying that it would be acceptable for you to commit adultery with a woman who is unmarried, then I feel really sorry for someone who is that young, and interested in marrying you. In fact, God requires the death penalty for adulterers:

Leviticus 20:10 'If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Let me ask you, what would happen if you go out and have sexual relations with prostitutes or single women and contract AIDS? Are you then going to come home and give it to your young wife, and children, so they will die also? Do you understand why God demands the death penalty for such individuals?

If you are going to marry someone that young especially [but anybody for that matter], you need to commit totally to them, because they are going to be looking to you to take care of them. However, you are suggesting that it is, not only acceptable to be unfaithful, but that it is also acceptable to possibly contract a disease, and kill your wife and kids with it with it as well.

As I said, you might want to rethink what you have said here. Adultery and sexual immorality are both terrible offenses from a Biblical perspective. If you truly love this 16 year old girl, you will consider what you would be doing if you actually acted upon what you believe.

God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist

4/3/07, 4:04 PM  
Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...

Thread drift. Sigh.

4/3/07, 7:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back On Topic

"Because access to women is virtually unlimited today, men do not see the progression of time as a threat or even a reminder to make wise decisions sooner rather than later. Men have little incentive to marry. Every function normally associated with a wife has been fragmented: food comes from take-out, sex comes from just about anywhere (for those who disregard God's moral prohibitions), and companionship comes from friends and coworkers. All of this kills the sense of aloneness in young men and reduces us to a pattern of fellowshipping with one another until death do we part." (p. 164)

==My first question is who does Maken think she is addressing in this section? Does she truly believe that Christian singles "disregard God's moral prohibitions" on a regular basis? If so she is wrong (1Cor 6:9-10).

Second what does she hope to gain by seeking to make single Christian men lonely? Loneliness rarely results in positive behaviors. In fact a bunch of lonely single Christian men might not be a good thing for lonely single Christian women. Why not? Because both might make a quick decision to get married in order to end their loneliness that one or both of them later regret. Marrying to end loneliness is not a good idea. There are many very lonely married people.

As for take out food I see plenty of men and women, single and married, Christian and lost I am sure, going through the drive through lines at the Burger King and Taco Bell adding fat to their bodies and damaging their hearts. Personally I don't visit those establishments of disease and death. I have learned to cook healthy food for myself and, according to more than a few people, I am a very good cook. Interestingly enough I know several guys, married and single, who are better cooks than most women. I would also say that Makin needs to look at the great chefs of the world. Most of them are, get ready, men. So men, single and married, don't need to visit fast food to eat. We are perfectly capable of feeding ourselves thank you very much.

As for companionship coming from co-workers, church friends, neighbors (etc), where in Scripture is this condemned? Of course marriage is a source of companionship but it is not the only source. Maken's arguments, once again, fail because Scripture does not command marriage nor does it command that people get their companionship from marriage alone.


"If we want men to pursue us, they must feel alone and use that loneliness as an impetus to seek us out. When access to women is limited, men have the glory of having accomplished something by fighting for it or working for it. Their very nature and desire for conquest resists having someone who came too easily." (p. 170)

==I have already addressed this above so I will not comment that much more on it. However any woman that plays "hard to get" with me is out of luck. I don't enjoy "conquest", "fighting" or "adventure". I don't like people who play childish games like that with me. Yes I said childish because that is exactly what it is. Adult women, and men, need to act like adults. That means be up-front about one's intentions, motives, and actions. Playing games like the ones Maken suggests will only cause lonely single Christian women to remain single longer.

Maybe part of what Maken is missing is that not all men "need" marriage. Therefore her game is not going to work. I'm 32, I've never been married, and I don't involve myself in fornication (etc). I don't "need" to get married and, therefore, I am certainly not going to put up with some woman who wants to play the silly, childish game of "hard to get". I can feed, cloth, and take care of myself. I have friends and I am generally happy with the direction of my life. So any woman that is interested in me is going to have to make my going after her worth my time and energy. Otherwise why should I bother? Any woman that has the attitude of Debbie Maken, or plays the games she suggests, is not going to get a second thought from me. Why not? Because I don't need their negative attitude in my life and I don't need the stress their childish games cause. I want a mature, confident, Christian woman who does not need to play games or walk around with an attitude.

I no longer amazed by how wrong Maken is. I am amazed that there are single Christian women who are desperate enough to listen to Maken's advice.

Martin.

4/4/07, 8:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Response to Anonymous 4/3/07 3:27 PM:

"For me, it's just much easier to create a strong bonding with a young girl than with one my age.

==That comment literally sent chills down my spin.

Martin.

4/4/07, 8:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"For me, it's just much easier to create a strong bonding with a young girl than with one my age.

==That comment literally sent chills down my spin."

Why? I'm not violating natural law or the social contract, and most men form stronger bonds with younger women. In fact, the older the woman the weaker will be the bonding. Same goeas for men, but they have a decade more time. <
the more baggage the woman has, the more distrustful she will be of men.

4/4/07, 9:28 AM  
Blogger bookwormlgi said...

I usually read these posts and fume about the nonsense that is spewed by some of you, but can not leave the RIDICULOUS points brought up by the anonymous poster..

"In the old testament, the man must be faithful to his wifes onces married, not before. The mandate for a girl to stay virgin is clear"

The mandate to keep the marriage bed clean is given to both sexes. Hebrew tradition is no replacement for the Word of God. You're also ignoring a complete book of the Bible. Let's see, Hosea was told to marry a prostitute.

Anonymous - It seems to me that the only reason you're not married is because you haven't found a virgin that will put up with your stupid views on sexuality, all the while living a life of promiscuity of your own.

I don't agree with the book being discussed here. I find that it bashes men more than is deserved. Unfortunately I find that this site takes the opposite view and blames everything on women. We are all sinners saved by an unbelievably gracious God. Do I have flaws that have kept me single longer that I'd like? Yes, but I think there's more to it than that... God is in control and when we twist His word to serve our purpose we don't allow Him to be glorified.

Anonymous -- seriously, what is wrong with you?

4/5/07, 8:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Anonymous: 4/4/07 9:28 AM:

Why?

==Why did your comment send chills down my spine? Because the "young woman" you are talking about is 16 years old and you are a grown man in your 20s. You need a woman "your" age and she needs a "guy" her age. In my view it is that simple.

In fact, the older the woman the weaker will be the bonding. Same goeas for men, but they have a decade more time.

==That is not true. My grandmother and grandfather were not married until she was in her thirties and he was in his forties. They were very closely bonded. I know others who married in their late twenties or thirties and, guess what, they are very closely bonded.

I'm not sure where you got your ideas from but I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

4/5/07, 3:38 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anakin wrote:
----------
Since she is a pragmatist, then neither she nor her fans should fault me for being too pragmatic or unromantic in my advice to men:

1. "Limit access" to your wallet:

[...]

2. Determine if her "intentions are honorable":

[...]

3. Determine if she is "serious about marriage"
----------------
Excellent point Anakin. This is something I think men (including myself) do not usually put enough thought into. There are no doubt many more things to add to this list, and others' lists will surely differ; but a very important point indeed.

I have no problem with a woman enlisting family and friends to help vet or qualify a suitor seeking her company. But as you point out, men should do exactly the same.

After all, men, no less than women, have a vested interest in finding a 'good, solid, Christian' for a spouse. Further, there is no reason, aside from blatant sexism (something I think Maken is at least marginally guilty of), to assume that women are any more likely to fulfill this requirement than are men.

Over on Maken's blog, Valerie (Kyriosity), posted a link to another blog providing a list of questions a father should ask any of his daughters' suitors. I have no problem with the list or the idea. I would do the same for any daughter of mine.

At the same time, women should be prepared to show themselves worthy of their suitors.

Not only is it fair for a man to vet and qualify a woman, it is wise. Anybody seeking to make a lifetime commitment to another has every reason (as well as responsibilty) to ensure that they are making a sound decision.

I suspect (and understand I could well be wrong) that Maken and many of her acolytes would protest this 'turning of the tables'. I say so because Maken et al. so clearly believe that 'it's all men's fault'; if so, what have women to answer for? What right would lowly men have to question a woman's worthiness? After all, it's his fault.

newsjunkie wrote:
------------
I don't agree with the book being discussed here. I find that it bashes men more than is deserved. Unfortunately I find that this site takes the opposite view and blames everything on women.
------------
Newsjunkie: I challenge to you prove your point here. Aside from a small handful of misogynists (if that), neither Anakin nor the commenters here 'blame everything on women'. This site only provides some much needed balance to Maken's 'blame it all on men' thesis. Women do not have 'their own house in order' nearly to the extent that Maken would have us believe.

Yes, men have their unique faults in this arena; but so do women. It is foolish to deny this and if you only address part of the problem, you will only solve part of the problem.

4/5/07, 7:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The ideal age difference between a man and a woman is around 10 years, because of different
maturity levels, biological clocks, and natural sexual attraction. I suggest to all of you to read a romantic novel written 40 years ago. It's always about a 25 year old man with a 16/17 year old young woman. A woman's childbearing age is around 15-35 years old. Women now expect to marry at thirty, when 75 % of her most attractive and fertile years have passed. Same age couples and infantilization of young women (teens)is a feminist nonsense imposition. I'm a Christian, but not a feminist.
We are in love with each other and I'm fatithful to her, I'm not and never was promiscuous. And obviously in real life I moderate my opinions much more than on the internet, which allows for trully free speech. The key factor in the relationship between a twentysomething man and a teen girl is the intention of the man. If the man merely wants to use her for sex, that's morally very wrong. However, if a young man wants to marry her, it's morally perfectly acceptable. On the one hand, the church promotes virginity, on the other hand if a young, hardworking, ready to marry man goes for a virgin all hell breaks lose. Makes no sense to me.
The bible does not outlaw marriage between a young man and a young woman (midd to late teens), if anything it encourages the man to marry a virgin. Considering a 16 year old a child is a feminist notion, and this is a Christian blog. I revised the statutes of my church and a Pastor is allowed to marry a 16 year old, but anyway we won't marry till she finishes school so she might change her mind. I write this not because I want to bother anyone but because I want to give modern women a sound advice: men will be fighting over you when you are around 15-25 years old, but after 25 your chances to marry will gradually but steadily diminish. And if you are an older woman, I still whish you luck in the search for your man, but advice your daughters, nieces etc...

4/6/07, 6:32 AM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Anon wrote:
--------------
The ideal age difference between a man and a woman is around 10 years, because of different
maturity levels, biological clocks, and natural sexual attraction. I suggest to all of you to read a romantic novel written 40 years ago. It's always about a 25 year old man with a 16/17 year old young woman.
--------------
That settles it! I guess when your biblical 'evidence' is limited to oblique support for your position based on Herbrew culture, romance novels from yesteryear wil have to do. What other hints should we look to such novels for?

Anon wrote:
--------------
Same age couples and infantilization of young women (teens)is a feminist nonsense imposition.
--------------
So, if I find myself attracted to a woman my own age (or, God forbid, one a bit older), and I often do, am I therefore 'buying into feminist nonsense?

Second, it is hardly 'feminist nonsense to acknowledge that teen girls (and boys) are not yet mature. You seem to believe that as soon as females hit puberty, they are mature. What nonsense; female puberty and female maturity are not synonomous.

As I pointed out before, to bulid a 'close realtionship', the two parties must be able to identify with one another, or 'connect'. I have no doubt that you and your girlfriend have been able to do this. However, this either means that she is abnormally mature for her age (not a bad thing by any means), or that you are abnormally immature for your age (a bad thing).

Anon wrote:
--------------
And obviously in real life I moderate my opinions much more than on the internet, which allows for trully free speech.
--------------
Translation: I can really reveal what's in my heart on the internet where I will not have to face real accountability; something I will never be able to do with my girlfriend.

Remember Christ's words well:

...out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks...

That applies her as well as elswehere Anon. I pity your girlfriend.

4/6/07, 9:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If one was to ask Maken if she believes that Jesus sinned she would, of course, say no. However let’s look at a statement she made on her blog. While talking about homosexual “marriage” she said:

”While I do not think the sin of being an indefinite bachelor is equivalent to sodomy, my point is simply to suggest that both sets of men live in, breathe and are products of the same cultural thinking.”

Let’s zoom in on the important point:

“While I do not think the sin of being an indefinite bachelor”

Debbie Maken believes that “being an indefinite bachelor” is a sin. Now since Jesus did not marry, therefore he was “an indefinite bachelor”, and since Maken claims that it is a sin to be “an indefinite bachelor”, then we must conclude that Maken believes that Jesus sinned by not getting married. In that case so did Paul and the others who did not get married. While I am sure Maken would deny this, this is the natural result of her statement. It is taking her statement to its logical conclusions. Maybe she does not wish us to do that?

Now the larger question I have for Debbie Maken, and those who would agree with her statement, is where does Scripture teach this idea? Where? I have studied the Bible, I have a graduate degree from a major Baptist Seminary, yet I have found no place in Scripture where it describes not getting married as a sin.

Quotes from the notes found her blog article: http://debbiemaken.blogspot.com/2006/10/gay-marriage-indefinite-singleness.html


Martin.

4/6/07, 1:55 PM  
Blogger wombatty said...

Martin:

That blog entry by Maken, in my opinion, is the picture of someone desperate to preserve their 'pet theory' by grasping at whatever straws present themselves.

Straw 1: Homosexual marriage is a hot controversy in our culture and, sadly, increasingly so in our churches.

Straw 2: Many insecure men are moritified at the idea of being suspected of homosexuality.
I think Maken was simply trying to captalize on these two 'straws' in order to scare men into marriage by creating a guilt by association:

Premise 1: Homosexuality is a spiritual pathology;

Premise 2:"...being an indefinite bachelor is... [a product] of the same cultural thinking [that approves of homosexuality]”;

Conclusion: Therefore, indefinite bachelorhood is also a spiritual pathology.

And the not-so-subtle message: If you don't want to run the risk of being suspected of homosexuality, then you'd better get married. It's the only cure for your 'condition'!

The fact that she feels the need to go to such lengths to support her case is telling.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

4/7/07, 6:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

reply to wombatty 4/7/07 6:44 PM


That blog entry by Maken, in my opinion, is the picture of someone desperate to preserve their 'pet theory' by grasping at whatever straws present themselves.

==I agree totally. Many of her arguments are circular and require a person to agree with her conclusion before they can accept her arguments.

Straw 2: Many insecure men are moritified at the idea of being suspected of homosexuality.
I think Maken was simply trying to captalize on these two 'straws' in order to scare men into marriage by creating a guilt by association


==If a person is not a homosexual those around him/her will know they are not. Who cares what strangers think? I don't. When Maken makes the type of arguments you are outlining she only weakens her case.

Therefore, indefinite bachelorhood is also a spiritual pathology.

==Of course she has no solid Scripture evidence to back up her claim. And, as we have seen here, neither do her devoted followers. Deep Scriptural study on this issue is something they run from. Maken's use of history is pretty bad as well.

The fact that she feels the need to go to such lengths to support her case is telling.

==Right, it tells me she has little to no real support for her position(s).

Maritn.

4/18/07, 10:23 AM  

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