Buzz Bomb #1
Buzz bomb:
If women agree with Debbie Maken that marriage is a Biblical imperative for most everyone, then on what basis can they use "parity" or "having standards" as an excuse to turn down suitors they don't like and delay marriage? Where is the Scripture that gives women this right?
If women agree with Debbie Maken that marriage is a Biblical imperative for most everyone, then on what basis can they use "parity" or "having standards" as an excuse to turn down suitors they don't like and delay marriage? Where is the Scripture that gives women this right?
posted by Anakin Niceguy at 11:51 AM
14 Comments:
A simple and excellent point. If a man is unduly delaying marriage because he is not constantly proposing to women willy-nilly until one of them accepts, then a woman is unduly delaying marriage by rejecting any man's proposal.
Jake,
It's not that simple. Women have to have standards. As you know, we are in churches with a very small number of available men. Still, we have to find a man who is living his life right.
He must be married by a certain age. He must have the right answers to the "eunuch" questions. He must be earning more than enough to support a family on his salary alone. He must be regularly attending church and be involved in regular service to the church.
On top of these qualifications, he must also be a man we find attractive and easy to spend time with. We're not asking for the perfect man, but for a man who is as close to the "ideal" as possible.
It is so difficult to continue hoping to find a husband who measures up.
I've heard the arguments of men, but Debbie knocks down all that nonsense so easily. Men really are going against God if they disagree with any point in Debbie's book. I believe this so strongly that I think an honest person can admit God is working through Debbie to get the message out.
If only the fundamentalist and orthodox churches are gaining members; if men are avoiding most Christian denominations; if many thousands of Christian women cannot find husbands, the answer cannot be with social trends or economic realities. It is the widespread personal failings of Christian men.
Men are immature and childish. The single men we have to choose from have almost no social skills, they cannot support families on their own, and they continue to refuse to grow up.
I'm convinced there are maybe only one or two losers attacking Debbie Maken's book. I'm almost certain the vast majority of men completely agree with Debbie Maken. That is why they should be hurrying back to the churches any time now. That is why many new marriages should be happening within the next few months.
As for me, I don't care if I'm single at age 80. I'm 40 now and the chances of me marrying either inside or outside the church are extremely small. I desperately want to be married, so I have to rely on Debbie Maken's message. There is no other hope but for men to embrace her book. People have told me to just relax and be a human being, to let romance happen naturally with a decent guy. I cannot give in to that demonic temptation.
Debbie has shown us the way. If men cannot follow women back to the right path, they are lost forever; and deservedly so.
Never forget that woman was not made for man; the man was created to support, love and care for the woman selflessly. I think God will deal very harshly with those men who reject Debbie's book.
Caroline,
I've heard the arguments of men, but Debbie knocks down all that nonsense so easily.
Ok, where did she ever deal with my arguments about the subject of the participle of darash in Malachi 2:15? Where did she ever deal with the fact that her interpretation of the phrase spouse "of your youth" would make it a command to sin? Where does she ever deal with the fact that 1 Corinthians 7:2 is not commanding people to marry, as even Gordon Fee himself points out? Where does she ever deal with the nature and application of the imperatives in Genesis 1:28? Where does she deal with the fact that lebad in Genesis 2:18 doesn't mean "single," and that there are no clear examples of such a meaning? Where does she deal with the fact that not all Greek scholars agree with the idea that 1 Corinthians 7:32 is written for a specific time, and, in point of fact, she contradicts herself by wanting to use verse 38 as being relevant? Where does she ever deal with my pointing out her gross misuse of Jeremiah 29:5 [BTW, John Calvin, who she likes to quote so much, disagrees with her interpretation]? Where has she ever dealt with the quotations I provided from John Crysostom and Augustine, and the historical background I provided about Luther and Calvin?
Also, as far as nonsense goes, virtually all of my professors that heard about this book laughed at it. Even Andreas Kostenburger and John Piper have major problems with its teachings. So, the reality is, it is Debbie Maken who is having her "nonsense" knocked down very easily, and does not want to deal with the refutations that have been given to her.
There is a reason for that. She cannot do it. She has no training in the subject. As we saw in the discussion with Andreas Kostenburger, whenever Debbie Maken is confronted with someone who knows the topic, she just simply says they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth, engages in a lot of hostile rhetoric that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and then runs and hides. God will only deal harshly with those who reject his word. When someone behaves in this manner, it is clear that they are the ones who are rejecting God's word.
God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist
PC,
You really are an idiot.
Can't you see Caroline's sarcasm?
GH
Actually, no GH. I have been reading the gift of singleness blog, and I see this kind of thing said, and spoken very seriously.
God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist
There is no need for this argument. Whenever women become similar to men in income and social leadership, lots of men are displaced. It isn't an attack on any social philosophy per se, just reality.
When Marco Polo arrived in China, he was astonished that women led religious services, owned most of the businesses, etc. A vast number of men were drunks or seemed to be aimless losers.
In Incan society, as women rose to lead society and demanded more rights for themselves but only more responsibilities for men, the men lost hope and stopped leading.
This is what is happening in Western society. Women are on parity with men. They own assets, lead social institutions, dominate education, religion and medicine.
Male priests and pastors pander to women as the women are the "market".
When men lose their natural position as leaders, as breadwinners and spiritual heads of families, they drop out of social institutions that once supported them in their roles.
Read your history. Whenever societies decide to give male and female roles to women, men generally drop out. It isn't in a man's nature to fight women for leadership or fairness. Men don't want to fight women, men don't want to compete with women.
Men are most comfortable and most responsible when they have a traditional social structure and a family to lead. If most men and women are economically independent, women will dramatically increase their expectations of men and of themselves. Ironically, this will cause many men to drop out of the game altogether.
Societies that put women in leadership and endlessly empower women in non-traditional roles usually destroy the spirits of ordinary men.
Why marry a woman who can support herself financially? Why marry a woman who already owns her own home and considers herself the spiritual leader of her own home and life?
As capable women continue to gain on men, ordinary men fall further behind. Men will compete with each other, but not with women. With the empowerment of women comes the corresponding lack of motivation in men. Lots of men have lost their primary breadwinner role, then they started losing their family leadership role; now society and many churches don't seem to stress marriage much.
Women deserve to be breadwinners; writers, lawyers and doctors. They deserve to have the fruits of their labors. However, just be aware that when most women are in the workforce and fully expect to be leaders in the home and church, it is a huge disincentive for men.
Men stop caring. Men stop going to church. Men work less. Men drink more and use drugs. They still love women, are still attracted to women, yet the society becomes less friendly to men; more friendly to women and children.
It has happened many times throughout history. Ignoring the traditional roles of men and women will create a society that is unsustainable. Religions die where men do not lead, yet the women who do the most damage are held up as heroes.
The singleness "crisis" is simply a lack of devout Christian men who earn high salaries.
If women want to be exactly like men in employment, government, social institutions and religion, they will have to accept that vast numbers of men will not measure up to the expectations of artificially empowered women.
I'm not advocating a return to the fifteenth century in terms of gender norms or sex relations, but there is something deeply wrong with societies which press women to behave as men.
Why do we have so many women over the age of 40 with no children and high paying professional careers? Why is it difficult for women attorneys and doctors to find husbands?
So many topics are kept off-limits by the women in this debate, but they are worth exploring.
I once dated a woman aged 37 who sadly told me she hated her life. She ran a large clinic and was very successful, but had never married. She said her dream all throughout childhood was to be a 1950s type housewife. She just wanted a husband and children to love and care for. She really didn't want the high-powered career and stresses related to people she didn't love. She wanted home and family.
That is an interesting sentiment. I think many women wanted home and family, but as a group (especially in the West), lots of women opted to earn "primary breadwinner" salaries. They opted to own their own homes. They didn't make being a "helper to a man" a priority, so it never happened.
I think it is sad that very good women will never marry and will repeatedly dismiss very good men; often only because they don't fit a modern woman's (or Debbie Maken's) standards.
Eventually our system which favors equal leadership for men and women will fall to another system which favors leadership for men only. That system will probably be Islam.
The proof of this is in England where churches are closing everyday. Women happily laugh about churches being for "girls only" while mosques pop up everywhere.
Muslim men are happy to show their devotion. Muslim women put their role as "helper to a man" first. They live to care for their husbands and children. Christian women seem only to approve of their husbands when he is extremely successful, good-looking and over-spiritualizing everything.
I don't have the answers, but it is very interesting to note that Muslim women cherish their roles as helpers to their men no matter what the issue. Our Christian single women only seem to see the woman's needs and interests. What can a man do for her? Why isn't he richer?
I'm not knocking single Christian women, just illustrating that their attitudes are more social trends than Christianity. Whereas women from other traditions are serious about the true role of women, it seems men aren't even welcome in the discussion of what should be happening between Christian men and women.
Why are men tuning out and dropping out of our institutions? Perhaps as in the church, they cannot truly lead. After many decades of empowering women in Christianity and the social world, it seems a bit silly to want men to come back and restore the "old order".
In the meantime, men will simply get by. When a new system comes into place where men are needed and cared for as leaders, the men will return. Until then, expect a slow decline of society and lots of unhappy single women who don't have the slightest idea why men are missing from their lives.
I couldn't have come up with a better plan than Debbie Maken's book.
What better way to confuse single Christian women?
What better way to offend single Christian men?
Through Debbie, the hearts of many Christian women are being hardened against men who otherwise would have made ideal husbands.
Sign me,
B. L. ZeBubb,
Chairman of the Debbie Maken FanClub
I think social trends are deeply impressed on modern Christian single women.
I remember throughout the 1980s and 1990s, comediennes such as Roseanne Barr joking to huge audiences of women how they cut off sex to their husbands completely and then laugh at the unhappiness it causes.
Even more women cheer the heroes of the divorce wars such as Heather Mills. Nothing seems a higher goal than to use a good-hearted man and then completely destroy him emotionally and financially.
It isn't universally true, but an equal number of Christian and secular women have been laughing at men, denigrating their roles, challenging their leadership at every turn and not taking marriage seriously.
This has been going on for decades now. A big reason for men's resistance to marriage is that they no longer want to be a victim to a culture which is still empowering women and trying to devalue the role of men.
Of course I could be wrong. As Maken illustrates, it could be all men's fault. Men don't really have any challenges to overcome, just character flaws which can be overcome with the help of women who know best what it is to be a man.
In my town, there are 9 special programs for girls under 5. There are endless athletic and art workshops for school age girls. The colleges are slashing mens sports programs to fund more womens programs. Two of our universities have about 70% female enrollment. Most churches have few men in attendance.
To say men are simply immature or slackers is plainly wrong. That is what Maken is saying. I think it is clear that many men feel they aren't important - and society is telling them this loud and clear.
The really sad point is that churches and Debbie Maken are telling women that men do have a place but men are too immature and too stupid these days to live up to their responsibilities.
This attitude is why many women will never marry, yet they will carry a general scorn of men to their graves; never understanding why things are the way they are.
Maken girls, we all agree that you are right and the men are wrong. Okay, if you are right, where are the men? Why aren't they rushing to worship at the feet of Debbie Maken?
If Debbie's message is deeply offensive to most men, some of you may want to rethink your absolute devotion to her message.
"(M)ost men would feel less frustrated if they pursued women who were like them (i.e. equals), and thereby risk a lower chance of rejection...The trick is to find someone with whom to be equally yoked, and yet realize that the time to search is a relatively limited period." -Debbie Maken
The time to search isn't just limited, it is very brief. Most of the aging old ladies Debbie is preaching to are the same who put off marriage to pursue education, career and travel.
I married young and know why the Bible recommends taking a wife in youth. The passion and mutual devotional love is powerfully transcendant. Most of Debbie's crowd are pushing 40 after decades of a not-too-serious search for a spouse.
Debbie tells these women who are virutally incapable of romantic love to be extra selective, extra picky - and to see the few available Christian single guys as "drifting through life" and "keeping their options open".
Women haven't done the same thing?
Don't be unequally yoked, guys!! It's better for you losers to marry down and avoid us Maken girls!! God will bring us our rich, successful and attractive husbands!
I hope the women who blindly follow Debbie Maken will step back and see how taking her advice will further limit their chances to find a husband. They've already missed out on youthful love and passion, isn't it foolish to spend many more years continually raising your standards for a man while the pool of available guys is already empty?
One of the things I find most repulsive/disturbing about many of the Makenites is their whole disparaging mindset of over-reactivity, the projection of 'victim' status, and the lack of a realistic understanding of the way the world works.
So let's see if I cannot add to this over-reaction.
"It's not fah-aiiir that men won't commit to marriage" is the infamous cry heard around the pews. That the world is not "fair" is something men seem to understand very early on in life, and conversely, the women just want to be every man's MOTHER (perhaps this is one explanation for why female cougars are seducing minors in our schools. They cannot handle a real man. Thus, they want someone they can control).
Nonetheless, we have the motherly recipe of Debbie Maken's book to ensure that all the men are put in their place, will marry before 25, and behave like docile and obedient good little leaders who erect only when the wife commands.
Meanwhile, Mama Maken's cerebral tonic of therapuetic remedies works its magic to protect the rest of the single Christian sisterhood from the cruel injustices and unkind hardships of a patriarchal society filled with eunuchs and uncommitted Alpha males who laugh, play, and have fun in their eternally blissful, protracted bachelor status, because unlike the opposite gender, these men are well aware and are at peace in the knowledge that, in all actuality, most of the 'good women are already taken'.
I think that deserves a checkmate... :)
MYOB
~ The Protracted Singleness Fan Club
Thank you all for your insights. I've enjoyed the discussion very much.
I still think it's sad that the Maken girls are hopelessly wrong about a great many things. They don't notice the obvious: that men are gone from the churches to a large degree for OBVIOUS reasons.
Men are also dropping out of the singleness/dating debate.
More men are happily living single lives.
We may have been designed by God to marry and be happy, but are the Maken girls really fit for marriage? If these women spend 100% of their time only relating to other women who share their views, is there any room for a masculine point of view? Any room for a man in their lives?
Some of the more strident Maken supporters almost seem deranged in their complete devotion to her message. No men are in the churches, yet no men are good enough to be "equally yoked" to these "wonderful" women.
These women are alone and the men know why, but it's impolite to speak the reason why.
It must be a mythical demon of singleness. It must be one or two bad men out there working in league with Satan to keep women single.
No, it's silly women who forgot they aren't supposed to lead men and dominate all our insitutions. Now they are in charge and want men to worship at the the feet of their female masters.
Men simply aren't interested in playing along with that game. More of us are happy bachelors. We would rather have random immoral relationships with women than a lifetime of domination by a sexless and nagging Makenite.
When you look at what men really want, the Maken girls offer nothing.
Tragic, but perhaps the women who follow Debbie Maken really don't want men in their lives unless they are ready to be subordinate to a wife. I'm convinced that is the reality.
I don't see the problem that Maken is always talking about. Most of the men in the churches around here are married. I don't see many Christian men playing around and putting off marriage. If anything I see many Christian men getting married as soon as they "find someone". As for single Christian women, again, most of the women in the churches around here are married. There are plenty of widows and there are those who have never married. However for most of the "never marrieds" the reason they are not married is that they never "found anyone". That is not anyone's fault, that is just the way life is. Some people get married, some don't. Some people have great jobs, some don't. Some people have good health, some don't. That's life folks!! Single Christian women who blame Christian men for their singleness are (a) being unChristlike, (b) being unrealistic, (c) being unBiblical, (d) wasting their time and energy, (e) making themselves less attractive to single Christian men around them, and (f)are guilty of playing the blame game (just like Adam and Eve did in the garden). It is time for Debbie Maken, and her followers, to grow up and realize that life in this fallen world will never be perfect. If you are not married, and you are a Christian, then you need to stop pointing fingers and start serving the Lord. That way your life will be usefull whether you get married or not. As it is, by spending all your time pointing fingers, you are wasting your time and your life.
Martin.
Songbird:
Looks like we do have many things we agree with.
a. "I'm pro-life. Men in the Church are my siblings in Christ and they needed to treated with great regard. I believe that men and women are equal in personhood but they are different in function."
Absolutley. I believe to God, each life is equally important but that each has a unique role according to his/her own skills, talents, experinence, and make-up. God doesn't love anyone more or less in my beliefs.
Interestingly enough, in the Philippines there is no feminism in the rural parts and things work (as expected) much smoother between men and women. My wife is one of 12 children, they all have university degrees (some two) and women work until their are children involved (heck, the President is a women). *BUT* the husband and wife work as a *TEAM*, the man leads in many areas the women in others, they share their skills based on their particular talents for the common goal of making the best future for their children, and elders are cherished. It's not perfect but it works rather well (it's allot like the "Leave it to Beaver Days" there. Welfare there, old age retirement and health care is HAVING A STRONG FAMILY - now that is incentive. Notice how in the west, the government (corp-gov) has replaced these functions of the family.
When I toured schools I cannot begin to describe not only how dedicated, enthusiastic and motivated the children were but how respectful, polite and well mannered. This is from a solid upbringing with strict parental controls (FATHER and mother) and a Christian (usually R/C) background. Then I come back to Canada where the children are often undisciplined brats. That is one reason why 70% of Filipinos whom come to Canada to work do so in a professional capacity. Solid, traditional upbringings with the man and wife fulfilling their traditional God given roles.
b. "Sorry that you were so hurt and angered by my generation's sins and everything. I'm really am."
Thanks Songbird. I'm not hurt for myself as I am married and have been for 15 years now (I love'n it!) BUT I am hurt for this generation of men whom will never know the happiness of marriage and having a good TRADITIONAL (non-feminist) women, for women whom will never know what having a real and loving man is all about and for children whom will grow up in broken homes, single parent "families" and have more than one "father". The real father unless it is through adoption, will always be the BIOLOGICAL father not some boyfriend flavor of the day.
I believe that government should remain outside of the family, that children should be either home based OR brought up in private schools sans government interference, that the family (husband, wife, children) is *THE* building block of society, a Patriarch society is what God intends for their to be progress, and so forth. And, like you, I am 100% against abortion which I consider to be murder.
The government and the elite powers-that-be through the use of feminism and other "tools" is and has been purposely tearing apart the family for about 30 years now. In part to control the children, in part due to hidden Luciferian agendas (my belief), in part to weaken society for future conflict ("order through chaos"), to control women and especially to crush men/boys as they are the natural leaders of society and builders of civilization.
It really isn't safe for men to marry in a westernized nation as the axe of the government is always hovering over the necks of men.
c. "I know you are saying this out of concern for all men but I'm concerned that your unsolved anger towards women (though rightly) will somehow cripple you spiritually."
I come across that way, but I have no unresolved anger towards women. I do have anger towards *feminists* (a constructed tool of elite powers and governments and with a hidden Luciferian/lesbian agenda) and to towards governments whom have waged a war to destroy the family and to murder countless unborn children. I am also against the multi-cultural programs which floods western nations with religions not compatible with traditional western freedoms and values in great numbers thus setting the stage up for great future deaths.
The excuse given for massive amounts of (example) Islamic immigration is often that immigrants are needed as too many people are getting old. No kidding!, as a society and particularly through the poison of feminism the next generation has been killed off. It doesn't take a prophet to see massive future bloodshed - particularly with Christians - as Islam becomes a majority in westernized nations like the UK, EU, Australia, Canada and the US and sharia law is imposed. The 7,000 cars torched in France and the Islamic violence in many nations (Australia, parts of the EU, Thailand, Philippines...) last summer is but a taste of the future and IMO most western nations will see civil war in not to distant future. This I believe, is being constructed on purpose and one of the foundation to this evil plan is *feminism* which was responsible for the murder of the next generation (they had to convince women to kill the most precious thing to them!), destroy the family unit and most of all to destroy the leadership of real men. Thast is also why boys are targeted in school with drugs like Ritilan, they are destroying the future leaders which may pose a problem.
d. "I guess we just have to disagree primarily on who are the transgressors on many of soceity's issues. I say both male and female are messed up in their own weird, whacked up way at different situations and at different times."
Yes. *Feminism* as I mentioned above is a MAJOR building block of what one may term, the "new world order" or "NWO" for short. Too that extent, women have played (or been played depending upon how you look at it) a pivotal role. I do not believe there is hope in "the west" at this point, one must reap what they have sown (and feminism has sown the seeds for a bitter crop for over 30 years now).
One can only *PREPARE* for what is now to come. To that extent I would encourage men and women to make preparations. IMO you will see shortages (water, food, gasoline and energy in general..), high unemployment, financial instability and probable currency crises/crashes and civil wars (Islam vs. Christians and others) in the near future. For example, if the city water supply is contaminated or interrupted, what preparations do you have in place NOW to purify and collect your own water?
I may come across as harsh, but to me, protecting my wife and the entire (extended) family, providing true leadership to the entire family and community there is something I take very seriously.
Lastly, nice ID & thanks for the book recomendation.
Caroline - assuming you are serious and not sarcastic - I wonder what steps, if any, you have taken to find a husband?
If you are waiting for him to approach you and court you without any interest shown on your part and perhaps very narrow availability, then I also ask... what other areas of your life do you handle the same way - like finding a job, or getting a promotion?
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