Shamelessly Borrowing
And now I shall shamelessly borrow links from my readers to some recommended readings:
1. Take a look at this article by "singlechristianman" (who is on my blog roll, by the way).
2. ... And this one, which was mentioned by "HG" in the readers' comments. It links back to www.churchformen.com. If any men here share in the same concerns I have, I suggest that you look at the forum on that site. I think you'll find a sympathetic place to discuss what is so utterly wrong with the way our religious communities (and the larger culture) have been treating men. There is even a discussion on Debbie Maken that might interest you (click here).
Let me know what you think.
1. Take a look at this article by "singlechristianman" (who is on my blog roll, by the way).
2. ... And this one, which was mentioned by "HG" in the readers' comments. It links back to www.churchformen.com. If any men here share in the same concerns I have, I suggest that you look at the forum on that site. I think you'll find a sympathetic place to discuss what is so utterly wrong with the way our religious communities (and the larger culture) have been treating men. There is even a discussion on Debbie Maken that might interest you (click here).
Let me know what you think.
posted by Anakin Niceguy at 6:59 PM
47 Comments:
This might be a little out there but I thought I'd post it anyway.
While I was reading the comments on the last topic a few days ago I turned on the television card in my PC and did a little channel surfing. I came across a show called "It's Me Or The Dog!". It's about an expert dog trainer (Victoria Stilwell) who helps people with problem dogs. Of course it's always the owners who have failed to train the pets that are the real problem.
Zoe and Paul have two greyhounds that fight, bite, go crazy on walks and have turned the house into one big toilet and it's down to Zoe's 'natural' (no discipline) rearing of the dogs. Paul wants to discipline the dogs but Zoe wont hear of it despite the fact that her methods have failed. Paul, finding his advice totally ignored disengages from the situation and lets her get on with it. She now sees his lack of involvement as the 'real' problem and thinks if only he'll get involved then doubling up what didn't work in the first place, now, somehow miraclously will work. The bit that made me really take notice was when she said if she had to choose between the dogs and her partner then he would have to go.
Now, I missed the beginning but managed to record some of it and here is the defining moment of the show (for me anyway) on youtube (about 3 minutes).
When Zoe is forced to accept that she has done a lot wrong in the training of the dogs she bursts into tears (how very predictable). Women accepting responsiblity for their actions these days seems to be a rarity. And why should it when they can falsely blame men and continually get away with it?
It really kind of sums up the problems men face with modern, pushy 'empowered' women who think with their feelings and are constantly told by the media that women are intrinsically right and men are inherently bad and wrong.
When you boil it down to basics, Paul was right and Zoe was wrong but she would not accept this, despite all the evidence that her methods had failed, until being told off by another woman 'expert'.
What was Paul supposed to do in this situation to get the dogs disciplined correctly? Raise his hand to Zoe? As far as I can see the only thing he could do was to disengage, yet that only resulted in even more blame being heaped upon him. And it irks me that to get Zoe onboard with a solution plan Paul still had to unjustly accept half the blame.
So many women are just not prepared to listen to men these days no matter how wrong they are.
I think Captian Sensible is starting to understand that there is something else going on. Her latest post celebrates a Muslim man talking about his new child and taking pride in being a husband.
This raises an interesting point: If Muslim men are so good, what are their women like? Why are Muslims happily marrying and having children?
I posted this in the comments section: (it won't see the light of day as Captain Sensible only publishes those who agree with her).
"Muslim men and women know their roles. The women are truly submissive and allow their men to lead.
Think hard now, Captain...
What is it about Christian women that drives men away and leaves women lonely and barren?
Why are most Muslims married and having babies?
Christian women are the problem. Whenever you have a surplus of something (Christian women), it means they hold less value; mainly because of their behavior.
Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim women are wonderful partners and understand masculinity. Christian women argue and control, blame and shame men.
As a result, the men are gone away. But it's so much easier to simply say men are failing you, isn't it? Maybe you failed the men?"
Jason,
Your posting about men and dogs reminded me of an article that's no longer in circulation. I read it for laughs a couple years back and catalogued the link for future reference. It's a different spin than the incident you covered. Unfortunately, the link is now dead, and the only source for the story, at least to my knowledge, is at The Free Republic forum.
The subject was for how wives could train their husband similar to a dog. Annie Clayton is the woman's name and she believed that dog and man were synonymous in nature. She is the author of the book, Bring Your Husband To Heel, who, like Debbie Maken, evidentally writes for laughs. You'll see what I mean.
In one quote from the article, Mrs. Clayton states: “I firmly believe you can train a husband like a dog because, well they both learn in exactly the same way. I'll let you into a little secret - I’m living proof it works - I haven't washed a dish in years."
This, in turn, reminded me of what Esther Vilar, author of The Manipulated Man, once wrote: " .... Men have been trained and conditioned by women, not unlike the way Pavlov conditioned his dogs, into becoming their slaves. As compensation for their labors men are given periodic use of a woman's vagina."
Which leaves me with one more thing to add. As long as men, from the legislature on down to the husband, continue to fetch the bone and defer 80% of life's decisions to women and willingly fall for these stupid dog tricks for the sheer motive of getting sex or whatever else her asking price is, then women will continue to feel they are entitled to any and everything. And then Debbie Maken wins after all, BUT not in the way she suspects, for in reality the above is, indeed, the way of the married Eunuch.
This is HG ...
signing off
From Esther Vilar to Glenn Sacks, the observers of female nature have been telling us the obvious for years: without strong social controls and religious sanctions, women stop being feminine and start taking control.
That is why the Muslims have strong family structures. Christian women are free and independent, unwilling to be submissive or even cooperate with men (not in all cases, of course).
Christian men would be very willing to commit if they thought the available women would embrace feminine behavior, allow men to lead, and wouldn't "discover" big faults with Christian men that really don't exist.
I agree with the economic comparison. If many unmarried Christian women exist in the marketplace, it means their price has become too high or there are a lot better options to choose from. I think both factors are in play.
There are many women who will give sexual favors outside of marriage, thus reducing the demand for wives.
Most Christian single women want a successful and attractive mate. This reduces the pool of men from which to choose.
The same women want men who attend church, though those same churches are feminine and serve only women and old people. This feminised-church attendance requirement repulses men, further reducing the numbers of men who want Christian women.
The result? Vast numbers of single Christian women with no hope of marriage or children. Christian churches which lose men every day.
The very last thing we need, the most poisonous pill to add to this mix is Debbie Maken's book. I will admit that there are some good points in her book, namely that marriage is an institution ordained by God and is the best environment for having and raising children.
However, 99% of what Maken says about men is either wrong or insulting.
But if Christian women are wrong about men, what can men do? They can disengage. If men aren't passive enough in church and aren't humbled enough for women in relationships, perhaps they should simply disengage and go elsewhere.
With Debbie Maken's help, that is what they have done.
Captain Sensible strikes again:
"Church leaders will have much to give an account for one day, including: Failing to disciple the men in the church towards Biblical manhood, and consequently aiding and abetting the enemy by making purposeless eunuchs out of them."
First, we hear how Muslim men are wonderful husbands and fathers. Then we hear more attacks on Christian men who are absent from the church.
The best advice for Christian men is to marry secular or non-Christian women and lead them to Christ.
Don't bother dating single Christian Makenites. Their minds are truly poisoned by feminism and an outright contempt for masculinity.
I'm happily single and don't consider myself a useless eunuch.
The best advice for Christian men is to marry secular or non-Christian women and lead them to Christ. <<
This is also bass awkwards. Inserting "date" or "hang out with" in the place of the word "marry" and things get flipped aright; but otherwise it's more than bad policy, it's sin. Make introductions to Him first.
As an aside, it is interesting to note that we don't hear much about how Christian women can effectively lead secular men to Christ -- this would increase the size of the dating pool, wouldn't it?
As a divorced but biblically free man, I am also sensitive to the fact that some churches -- the A/G, for example -- would place me in an 'available' but 'not desirable' - technically, if I wanted to take their doctrinal statement literally, doing something like helping with an offering or taking food to a widow (duties of an elder) would be outside what I could biblically do if I remarred (i.e. I would have "more than one wife." Now, I doubt it would be applied thus, in my local a/g church there are divorced people running home groups -- essentially being the real pastor to many people. But there is a gap between cup and lip that is not acknowledged.
My .02$ worth.
Could this woman possibly be a Makenite?
I loved the "spinster" link.
It's so funny how these women want to live a complete life before getting married, then wonder where the men have gone.
There is some karmic justice going on here, though. Most of these spinsters rejected all men but the "alpha" males with whom they had relationships or dating experiences. When the alpha males moved on, the rest of the men weren't interested.
I know it isn't exactly what God ordains for human beings, but since abandoning the idea of marriage and simply pursuing casual relationships, I've never been so happy, so at peace and so optimistic. I have very little drama in my life. It makes me think that this is how men should live their lives. If women are so completely dissatisfied with men these days through either a feminist, Maken or pop-culture perspective, then why not reject marriage completely?
Getting back to Jason's story about Zoe taking charge until Paul completely backs away... This is exactly what men are doing in Christian and secular society.
After the 40 year war against masculinity in the West, now we have Maken and her crowd of harpies telling men how to behave, how to think, how to feel?
It's as though the whole world is Zoe's house with the dogs crapping everywhere, but the women won't let the men take charge to put things right. The women would rather have a world that is out of control, brutal and without men - than make changes that would make everyone happier.
Funny how Captain Sensible and her crowd are realizing Muslim marriages happen much more easily and seem much happier. Of course it is a mystery as to "why" this is. Perhaps women knowing their place is part of it. Perhaps being a little bit feminine and letting men be men is part of it.
These women won't listen to men, but the problem is simple. Men don't want to fight women for power, but women enjoy taking power from men. That is why societies typically grow more feminine over time; at which point, they deteriorate and fall to more male-oriented social systems over time. In the UK, churches are either 99% female or closing up forever. Mosques are expanding and are full of men, women and children.
The churches are doing more and more women's outreach, even as zero men are in attendance. The mosques are full of men and converting native Britons to Islam every day.
But like the story with Zoe and Paul, Modern British women simply "don't get it" and will not make changes despite the fact that what they are doing is killing the Christian church in England. All they can do is blame and shame men for not doing the things that are in reality, erasing Christianity from the UK.
Exactly anon 6:42 AM.
I woke up this morning to Nick Ferrari's talk radio show on LBC and one of the topics was the schizm developing in the Church over the gay issue. The first caller was The Times religion correspondent Ruth Gledhill and the conclusion reached by their little discussion was that gay clergy was a good thing because gay men are kinder and more caring.
????
I wanted to phone them up and ask them if they knew that men have left and are leaving the Church in droves and why this situation has arisen? (I couldn't because I had to get to work)
Could it be something to do with straight men do not want to be preached to by either smug condescending women (think Amanada Burton in The Commander) or spineless effeminate men? Is this a possibility or am I just a sexist bigot?
Jason,
You sexist bigot!!
Not really. But you are right. I think it is helpful that more women are noticing how happy the Muslims seem to be about marriage and men being actively religious. Of course, nobody wants to convert to a false religion, but the women in Christendom have made Christianity a girl's club and don't know how to fix things.
They love church the way it is, but want men to attend as well. However, feminine church dominated by women is intolerable to men. Since women won't yield to compromise, the men are disengaged and will not date "church ladies".
The latest news from the Makenites is an effort to lure non-church attending men back into the fold. Sorry, won't happen. The church must return to its roots, serving men women and families; not simply women and women and more women.
I think it's astonishing there is any debate. Even Debbie Maken herself says pop-culture feminism and "feminine churches" are false issues. The churches are fine they way they are, says Debbie.
If the churches aren't serving men and men are being ignored or insulted, perhaps men should walk away and figuratively let the dogs run wild.
It is an almost impossible problem to solve. Islam is very dysfunctional, but it does retain family structure and sex roles.
Many Christian girls I've known have behaved in a very secular fashion with men; Debbie Maken watches Sex & The City, and most of these single women who post here are single professionals who put marriage and family last on their list.
The Zoe and Paul story is so instructive. It shows how women crave control regardless of reality or what is good for themselves, family and community. It is women who aren't submitting themselves as wives. They place themselves, their parents, friends and even pets ahead of their husbands, and then wonder why the very same guys aren't worshipping their erratic moods and capricious decisions.
When women control the Church, it seems so reasonable to introduce gay clergy and soften the message so it is completely agreeable to women. More love songs, more bake sales, more talk about children, pets, family, etc.
If women dominate, make all the decisions, but are completely unhappy, isn't it obvious where the problem lies? It lies with women who are led by effeminate men; i.e. the modern Christian Church.
Real men are simply disengaging and walking away. And you know, it might just be the best policy until women decide what they really want.
But of course, women won't hear of it, despite the fact that everything they have tried has failed. Debbie Maken's book is yet another of those failures.
I am a bit confused by the Maken Cult's assertions that the churches are fine as they are. If anything, this is because they believe that the churches aren't femicentric (which they most definitely are), and the problem is men not wanting to go anymore. This is what leads the charge of being a eunuch and a lack of leadership. She even goes so far as to say that there's too much male-centric attitude in the church and not enough outreach to women.
If things were really that bad for women, why are you still going to church, Ms. Maken?
When one gets right down to it, Maken and her ilk are promoting a willful lie regarding who leads the church and who doesn't; at the very least, she is taking a willfully ignorant posture as to what is really going on. In either case, she builds false strawmen regarding males, and pronounces judgement upon them because we don't want to go back. It stymies me how anyone can claim that churches are awful to women, favoring of men, and yet men don't want any part of it. She is adding 2+2 and getting an answer of 5.
What is it that's said in the Bible regarding false prophets and how they operate?
"Debbie Maken herself says pop-culture feminism and "feminine churches" are false issues. The churches are fine they way they are, says Debbie."
Maken has NEVER said that churches are fine as they are. To disagree with "feminine churches" does NOT mean that churches are fines as they are. If you read her book, you will see that what your implications are bogus.
Curiepoint said...
I am a bit confused by the Maken Cult's assertions that the churches are fine as they are. If anything, this is because they believe that the churches aren't femicentric (which they most definitely are), and the problem is men not wanting to go anymore. This is what leads the charge of being a eunuch and a lack of leadership. She even goes so far as to say that there's too much male-centric attitude in the church and not enough outreach to women.
I don't think that Maken quite thinks the church is 'fine as they are'. In her book, she upbraids the church for not focusing more on the duty (sic) of seeking marriage.
She clearly thinks that the churches should have a policy of regularly addressing the sin of 'prolonged singleness' with a special emphasis on heaping contempt on single guys.
If memory serves, she also complains in her book that churches not nearly as focused on families as they should be. This is really bizarre as many churches are so family-centric that singles often feel left out.
Of course, as we have often pointed out, Maken's prescriptions would simply chase more guys away, further frustrating and enraging Maken's followers.
I still think it is fascinating to watch the Maken girls admire Muslim men and how religious they are.
Christian men also have faith, but they don't have women who are ready to stand by them as a 'helpmeet'. Christian women generally rule their homes and consider "male leadership" to be "big income", nothing more.
If you want to see the problem with women making all the decisions in Church or in relationships, I highly recommend the Zoe and Paul video on YouTube.
Women today aren't listening to men, aren't cooperating with men and blame every conceivable problem on men. The problem is so bad that even good Christian women of today would seem like radical feminists back in the 1960s.
Muslim women wouldn't dare defy their men the way Christian women do. Perhaps that is why Muslim men are much more devoted and happy with their marriages?
For more information, visit thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com where there is currently an admiring thread about Muslim men.
I just read that piece about a muslim man at The Gift of Singleness site. Men refusing to marry "are not real men"? I suppose Captain Sensible is consistent and believes women who don't wear burkhas aren't "real women" .... nah.
You know better than that Anakin ;-P
That would imply that women have responsibilities in relationships (as poorly as that might be expressed in the Muslim world) - and that borders on heresy in the church of Maken.
Not surprisingly, most such observations from Maken's camp consist of two things: 1) Men’s responsibilities (i.e. marriage, provision for family, etc.) and; 2) Women’s wish fulfillment (husband, children, etc.). Rarely, if ever, will you see a word uttered regarding the responsibilities of women.
This should be no surprise though. After all, according to Maken’s lights, adult women shouldn’t even be expected (unless absolutely unavoidable) to manage their own personal lives; hence the admonition to move back home, if at all possible, and have their parents do it for them. If women shouldn’t be saddled with such fundamental personal duties, they certainly cannot be asked to take on responsibilities to someone else (e.g., a husband).
Maken has taught us that men are to blame for all but the most trivial of relationship problems between men and women. Any objections men might make to this proposition are merely obfuscation and subterfuge; for their real objective is escape from responsibility and maturity! Women seeking relationships have only entitlement to concern themselves with and, by God, it is being denied them! How dare us!
I’ve been thinking lately that maybe Maken’s movement needs a catchy slogan and I think I’ve found the perfect one:
Boys are made of snakes and snails and puppy-dog tails; Girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice.
I think this old nursery rhyme captures the movement’s contempt for men in fashion sufficiently whimsical to distract from its endemic misandry (such distraction being necessary for the success of the cause, you understand).
Not surprisingly, most such observations from Maken's camp consist of two things: 1) Men’s responsibilities (i.e. marriage, provision for family, etc.) and; 2) Women’s wish fulfillment (husband, children, etc.). Rarely, if ever, will you see a word uttered regarding the responsibilities of women.
Excellent point, Wombatty.
By the way, it appears "The Spinster" has now closed her blog to public view.
By the way, it appears "The Spinster" has now closed her blog to public view.
Gee, I didn't mean to run her off. ;)
GH
The Spinster must have either been an elaborate hoax, or she found herself a walking ATM that will fill her entitlement needs.
As P T Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute.
The only thing Debbie should be "Maken" is a sandwich for her husband. :D
Something that Mrs Maken might want to take into account is that you cannot force yourself to fall in love with someone.
If men aren't falling in love as much anymore then women may want to consider why.
Looking at some of the female comments on Maken's blog, Captain Sensible's and this one, I can't see that happening anytime to soon.
I'm surprised some of the Makenites are saying all this barrenness and singleness is the work of the devil. Clearly it is the work of women wanting to be like men.
I have no sympathy for women complaining about "no good men" when they work, have their own homes and live as men. The very same women always vote for left wing politicians that encourage family breakdown, subsidize single motherhood, and give employment preferences to women.
If you endlessly empower women and do nothing but add more responsbilities to men, the men will eventually walk away. That is what they have been doing.
There are more single, homeowning, professional, wealthy women than ever. They are arriving in middle age with no men and sky-high expectations of a possible husband. This is quite different than the days of Wilberforce when most men had a social and financial edge over women, and could take a wife within two weeks of deciding to marry.
Women have chosen their path. They work, they live, they worship - all independently. They aren't willing to be a 'helpmeet' let alone a partner with a man.
My department at work is 29 women, 18 of whom are single. There is one gay man and one straight man, me. In my neighborhood, 8 of 12 houses on my street are owned by single women who rarely date and have no children.
Our government continues to grow, hiring women most often. Every morning in traffic, I see many more women than men rushing to soul-crushing office jobs. In the evenings, they rush out to buy clothes or knick-knacks, then it's back to their empty houses.
It really is a woman's world. I guess it's a good thing that women can and actually do the things that men used to do, but where does that leave men? If women are primary breadwinners, social, religious and political leaders, primary parents and marketplace consumers, where does that leave men? Are men simply used for extra financial support and having children?
The problem with the lack of men willing to marry is economic and social. McCulley and Maken are only speaking to elites, not to ordinary folks who live on ordinary incomes.
Women's empowerment came at the cost of men not being able to support a family on one income. Easy divorce scared men away from commitment, and sexual freedom made women far less valuable to men except as playthings. Women embraced all of these things that are killing marriage and emptying churches.
And now the women come back to shame men? Give me a break.
By the way, has anyone seen Captain Sensible's latest rant?
It is becoming increasingly clear to me that singleness is indeed a gift. Yep, singleness is a gift. But it is not from God. It is a gift from the devil.
I wonder what Jesus and Paul would say about that pronouncement.
He wants Christian men to become self-absorbed and obsessive, more concerned with indulging their increasing oddities instead of loving their wives and children and leading a balanced life.
Will Captain Sensible please do us a favor and practice truth in advertising by changing his/her name to Captain Nonsense?
Anonymous said...
If men aren't falling in love as much anymore then women may want to consider why.
Looking at some of the female comments on Maken's blog, Captain Sensible's and this one, I can't see that happening anytime to soon.
It isn't going to happen any time soon because Maken & her crowd refuse to concede that women are part of the problem. They stridently insist that men are the entire problem (or very nearly so).
So, not only will they never solve their problem (adressing part of the problem will only lead to a partial solution), any men who might be interested in them are likely going to be wary of their 'blame everything on men' mentality. What man would want to marry such a woman?
There are more single, homeowning, professional, wealthy women than ever.
Ah, and there's the rub.
One of the criteria of mate selection for many, many women is in the quality of a man's material and/ or social gains. Thus, professional minded women think that taking on those same attributes of status and material gain will help them, too, in the luring of a more "qualified applicant" (read: Alpha male, in plainer language).
However, unless one is watching "Reality TV", this works just the opposite, like bug repellent.
A man is not attracted to a woman in the same way a woman is attracted to a man. (And if career and material gain is considered the numero uno priority in mate selection and pot-boiling interest, then I'll gladly stay on the sidelines. I can do that. Because, as I see it, there is no love from this picture. None.)
As a side note, I do not care nor am I jealous of women who have attained great wealth, worldly possessions, and have moved up the ladder of "success" -- (success being totally subjective here, naturally). If that's what women want out of life, though -- more power to them. May they fall in love with all of their accomplishments.
All I ask is that women be prepared for the downside risk. In other words, don't be surprised if your undying soul-search for the "qualified applicant" becomes a marketing lie, a bad bill of goods sold to you by the devil himself. In this old world we live in, "having-it-all" is a fool's paradise.
Having said that, I do not know how long it's going to take before women get it into their heads: Most men are not looking for women who want to compete with them at home; men are looking for women who want to be wives FIRST. Men are looking for women who LOVE them FIRST (actually second before God, for the literalists out there). All the rest is superficial. It's really that simple.
HG
HG wrote:
Thus, professional minded women think that taking on those same attributes of status and material gain will help them, too, in the luring of a more "qualified applicant" (read: Alpha male, in plainer language).
However, unless one is watching "Reality TV", this works just the opposite, like bug repellent.
A man is not attracted to a woman in the same way a woman is attracted to a man. (And if career and material gain is considered the numero uno priority in mate selection and pot-boiling interest, then I'll gladly stay on the sidelines.
A guy I listened to on the radio while I lived in Minnesota had a pithy little comment that I think is relevant here: ‘Things went to hell when women started acting like men.’
HG wrote:
All I ask is that women be prepared for the downside risk.
Now, now HG - you know that's asking too much.
HG wrote:
In other words, don't be surprised if your undying soul-search for the "qualified applicant" becomes a marketing lie, a bad bill of goods sold to you by the devil himself. In this old world we live in, "having-it-all" is a fool's paradise.
Yeah...that'll happen. It seems, more and more, that what the Makenites expect is this: Women have the prerogative to change anything they wish; their careers, their life-goals, their dreams & aspirations, etc., etc.
On the other hand, it is the divinely mandated duty of men to 1) bear the guilt for the mess such women have made (it is our fault, after all); 2) ‘pick up the pieces’ of that mess; and 3) pass that duty on to the younger generation of men.
To sum up, women have the prerogative to make a mess of their lives and men have the duty to clean up after them.
To be fair, I’m sure there are plenty of Maken’s followers that haven’t ‘made a mess of their life’ in this fashion. Unfortunately, they are suffering the fallout of those ‘trailblazers’ who preceded them and who continue to hold forth the false promise that ‘you can have your cake and eat it too’. Until such women (indeed, women in general) reject that false promise, many of them will know only heartache.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anon said...
Womyn are evil vile creatures.
Nonsense. They are simply imperfect creatures with weaknesses and faults like guys. It's just that some in the Maken camp don't seem to be very willing to admit that.
Anon said...
It is time we start having sex with one another..
Now that's just gross and wrong...
Womyn are evil vile creatures. It is time we start having sex with one another.
Oh, crap, does this mean I'm forced into a google account? I'm relieved Wombatty recognized I didn't write this statement by addressing his response to anon.
The ever lovin' HG would never stoop so low into pathological psychosis ...
HG
Carey Roberts latest piece is well worth a read.
Hello:
As a non-Christian male I would like to make these comments:
a. Any man who gets married in a "westernized nation" is insane. Lets say you marry a women whom appears during the dating process to be traditional and Christian. Now lets say down the road she suddenly changes her mind about her religious convictions and her attitudes towards you as her feelings have changed.
Where does that leave YOU?
* 80% * of all divorces are initiated by women, Christian or not. As 70%+ of couples do divorce the odds are that you will eventually loose custody of your children, most of your assets including your home, your earnings, your savings and likely your health and sanity. The entire divorce industry will take you in and spite you out. The divorce rate in the US is vastly underreported leaving out high divorce states like California to lower the overall percentages (where areas are in the 90% range).
Women's emotions are often like leaves in the wind. Every little current be it another's opinion, television, music, magazine survey, TV expert, entertainment or reality show, or self-help book causes the "leaf" (feelings, emotions..) to move in an most unpredictable fashion. Again, if for what ever reason *SHE* her feelings change towards being a Christian or the importance of her husband you will loose everything including your future. As expected, in time, the leaf carried by the winds crashes to the ground and decays.
In Patriarchic nations the situation is far more balanced but in Matriarch nations like the US, it is a VERY BAD DECISION, no matter, how much you think she is different.
NO MATTER YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, TREAT IT AS A BUSINESS DECISION AND LOOK AT THE RISK vs. REWARDS. There is no point to having children if they are going to be ripped from you one day as you're fed into the divorce meatgrinder and what little remains, sent off on your role as a ATM.
b. I've read the blog of nutcase Mrs. Maken. I can't believe that any real man would tolerate ANY women talking to them in such a manor. Personally I think she is a "snake-oil" saleswomen and a coward. Many men in westernized nations are manginas, and lack the moral fiber (aka guts) and the courage to stand up for their rights. These effeminate "men-wannabes" will likely find themselves as an ATM supporting children he'll never know, beaten and broken by the system while former their formerly Christian wife heads off to pursue her new interest in something likely the opposite of Christianity and involving bad-boys. Of course, the responsibly for everything remains the man's duty.
I mean read the comments from the women. Do they sound even a tiny bit feminine? Look at the comments on "jobs" - it all about money to most of them whether they want to admit it or not.
Take this excerpt from comment on her blog as an example, "....I think the factory worker you cite is an exception though, and it puzzles me why a man who is intelligent would choose factory work (assuming we are not talking about managerial level). Is he not guilty of wasting his intellectual talents, which could be better used for the common good in a professional environment? Does he perhaps have a problem accepting responsibility? I must say this would raise red flags for me...."
Many women will put down men in trades, blue-collar jobs and so forth. There is never any mention as to how honest, caring, good and so forth, the man is, nor is there any comments as to what **HE** wishes to pursue in his life and what he finds challenging and rewarding (I do not mean money but in terms of personal growth). It's all about *HER*. I know many blue collar men such as the "trades", and quite frankly, those bitter old spinsters do not deserve to be in the same nation as them, let alone, the same church.
For a non-Christian male, after reading such things on her blog, why would I ever walk into a Christian church full of such venomous, bitter, old spinsters? Is this why in the UK, a mosque is about to built in London which is 3 times the size of the largest Christian church?
c. Women are said to be more romantic and follow their feelings, and men practical. For the most part this is true. But for areas such as dating, relationships, marriage and children the reverse is more-times-than-not the case.
A women is often looking at your earnings (present and future), assets, social standing (impression her friends have is very important to her) and so on. Men are often following their feelings - "oh she would never divorce me", "she is different", "I love her" or "wow, she's hot and got great bo*bs!".
Take dating..how many men expect the women to pay 50%?, and how many men start off their relationship by paying the entire bill and being a good ATM? Whom has followed their feelings and whom has been more practical? Even if she is earning $100,000 a year, doesn't hurt the pocketbook to get a free meal!
d. Your options as men are:
i. Remain single. Use male birth control (*1) and document it, hide your assets overseas and have an escape route should you one day be falsely accused of being the father. You should also be careful lest you be up on false rape, child abuse or other charges. The better you do the more of a target you will become. All this needs to be done NOW - before you have problems. Remember men are GUILTY until proven guilty.
*1 = I do not necessarily mean to use and have sex before marriage...that is up to your beliefs. I mean from a legal standpoint, being able to prove the child is NOT yours including a DNA test. Now, quite often men are forced to pay anyways (the state gets a cut) so your innocence quite often doesn't matter, however, no harm in this taking step. That's why you should be prepared to "bug-out" lest you land in jail. As women age they get desperate both to have children and to catch their ATM.
ii. Be a single father. Adopt, use a surrogate mother, new technology as it comes out. At least, you won't have your children ripped away from you some day.
iii. Marry a foreign women and expat *2. I personally did this. My wife is RC, we live part time in the Philippines where there is NO legal divorce. I have been for the most part happily married 15 years now and going strong. I like going there as men are men and women are women. And since we can't divorce there (our house is there) I'm never looking over my shoulder waiting for that divorce shocker.
* You should wait until your mid-30s, after your hormones die down and you can make a wise, decision using your big-head rather than your small-head. Many men are trapped into marriage - there are good foreign women but you have to use wisdom to find them.
* Actions speak louder than words, yet most men listen to the siren song of a women. Women often use seduction, emotional manipulation and ruthlessly exploit the weakness of men. Then once you've signed the line of the marriage contract they emotionally blackmail you especially if you have children. How many men foolishly pay child support as they feel guilty for the children? A good women is rare and worth her weight in gold. I know, I married one. Like business, take your time and acquire the maturity and WISDOM to make a wise decision. A good women is a good partner in life and worth perusing - overseas. Think of the movie, "The 10 Commandments"...look for the PRACTICAL women who really does have your best interests in mind.
iv. Become a "player". I do not advocate this, however, western society certainly gives all the perks to the bad boys and punishes the just.
v. Don't listen and get married and hope your not one of the 70% whom gets divorced. For the 30% remaining, what percentage is left of men who have been married longer than (say) 10 years, have a happy marriage life including active se*x and get to be MEN?
I bet, under 5 %.
e. Lastly, they say a good marriage can be mathematically expressed as thus: 1 + 1 = 3. This is correct...the sum of the marriage is greater than the individuals. However, the bad marriage can be a total loss for the man and the children, and only the women benefits. Again, no matter what a women SAYS or FEELS (talk is cheap) never, ever get married in a westernized nation regardless of your faith. And no matter how you FEEL, use wisdom as women are master manipulators when it comes to feelings/emotions (example: talk to men who've been HAPPILY married at least 10 years, read books, work it out as a business partnership sans feelings...).
Here's a "blame-it-on-the-men" headline. From The Coloradoan newspaper:
Women joining men in porn-addiction ranks, Christian groups say
One in five church-going women responding to a self-selected poll conducted by the Christian Web site ChristiaNet.com said they struggled with looking at pornography on an ongoing basis.
What's the world coming to, George Barna?
HG
As a non-Christian male I would like to make these comments:
The above comment makes all susequent comments by you completely irrelevant.
HG
If I didn't know better, I'd swear one of my dearest fans is impersonating me. Could it be I've inherited a stalker? On the Internet? Who would've thought that?
By any chance, are you the one and only Captain-save-a-ho?
This has the earmarks of your style. Not only that, but one of your blogs to avoid is coincidentally, Scripturally Single.
Or it could be GH?!? I suppose she's never forgiven me for taking her initials, reversing the letters, and using it as my own. Isn't she the one who vowed never to come back to this blog :: scratches head:: ???
Whatever. This god worship of me is almost borderline creepy. I know it sounds familiarly cliched, but ... um ... whoever you are, please, seek help before you hurt yourself. ;)
hg: "The above comment makes all susequent comments by you completely irrelevant."
Oh really?
So if a man whom is not of the same faith as you suddenly yells, "look out!", you'd ignore it? That makes for a rather unpleasent situation if the "look out" happened to refer to a large semi-truck roaring up from behind you.
How about if the man yells, "fire". Alas, just another irrelevant comment? Let me get my marshmallows!
Me thinks, you're just a wee bit "close-minded".
Likewise, if you want to ignore warnings from other men whom may not be of your particular faith (or flavor of faith) be my guest and get married in the western world. Don't come crying to momma when you've lost the house, find yourself paying child and spousal support and find out what a meat-grinder the divorce and child support industry turns out to be.
Not to mention, you're children whom have to keep asking good ole "mom", "who's the Daddy now?"..
Thanks for the link Jason; excellent article. If only Maken and her crowd could bring themselves to take such observations seriously.
from
Women joining men in porn-addiction ranks, Christian groups say
***
One in five church-going women responding to a self-selected poll conducted by the Christian Web site ChristiaNet.com said they struggled with looking at pornography on an ongoing basis.
[...]
But people who study the culture of pornography are discovering what the $13 billion porn industry has already found: more and more women are porn consumers.
***
Good grief – that’s 20% of church-girls that struggle with porn on-going basis! I know women like and enjoy sex, I just didn’t know they were so…hung-up on it in such big numbers. This is not good for anyone.
activate sarcasm mode
This simply cannot be true – it must be a conspiracy hatched by the Brotherhood of Perpetual Bachelorhood. There are thus two possibilities:
First, and most likely, Barna has been infiltrated or bought-off by the Brotherhood so as to propagate false information. They can then fallaciously claim that women share the blame for relationship problems.
The second possibility is that the stats are true; it’s just that women are being driven to this by men who aren’t pursuing marriage. A girl has to ‘tame the fire’ somehow, doesn’t she (just as long as the same privilege is withheld from men)?
Whatever we do, we must remember that it’s men’s fault and place the blame accordingly.
sarcasm mode off
I like men and I cannot lie!
You other brothers can deny!
When a man walks by with his ity bity thing!
I get sprung!
HG
ew,
you do have a point but men and women are equally to blame for relationship problems and a lot of things actually. I am not trying to pick a fight but are blaming women are EVERYTHING in the world? I mean, both men and women wrong each other equally in various times. Plus, don't deny that majoity of sex trafficking/modern slavery victims are women and children, that places like China, and India value their sons way more than their daughthers as if the girls are less than human or something. I'm no better than the next one at the dealing with relationships (in general not necessarily romantic ones). I committed offense and repent of them just like anyone else. I'm going to accept the fact the women's attitude need to change.
There's no point keeping up with this debate anyone anyway since both men and both on either side don't like to take ownership of their own gender's follies and sins but love to point each other's failures to make themselves look either like victims or like they are so perfect that they can't do anything wrong. Plus, both of them have this entitlement complex and cynicism like it's in their genes or something. No generation is more or less immoral than the future or previous ones. We need to stop living like there is utopia in whatever era, nation, or culture when there is no such thing and there never will be...
I'm off and away
Sorry for the grammar mishap:
"There's no point keeping up with this debate anyone anyway since both men and women on either side don't like to take ownership of their own gender's follies and sins along with their personal ones but love to point each other's failures to make themselves look either like victims or like they are so perfect that they can't do anything wrong. Plus, both of them have this entitlement complex and cynicism like it's in their genes or something. No generation is more or less immoral than the future or previous ones. We need to stop living like there is utopia in whatever era, nation, or culture when there is no such thing and there never will be...
I'm off and away."
Songbird:
I'm was not debating. Just the facts for the men. Again, the bottom line is: IT"S SUICIDE FOR MEN to get married in a westernized nation. The fact is, 80% of divorces are initiated by *WOMEN*. 70% of marriages in the US end in divorce. If a man gets divorced (a 30% chance of success isn't exactly something I would base my whole future on) he will likely loose his children, the lawyers often will tell the women to falsely accuse him of child/wife abuse (which means he becomes a criminal), he will end up loosing everything including all his future earnings. Why do you think the suicide rate of men is so high?
Likewise, a man has no say over abortions (like trying to prevent one), how child support is spent (money sent to the ex-wife is often spent on anything but the children). Oftentimes the man has to pay child support for children proven by DNA not to be his, even for children proven by DNA not to be his for women he never eve met, or even for single mothers he just dated (is seen as a father figure).
The point is, the DIVORCE INDUSTRY is BIG BUSINESS and the states get a "cut of the action". The laws and the full power of the nation regard men as little more than a walking ATM with no rights.
Songbird, your dancing around the issues - twisting them.
Since you mentioned debate, lets see:
a. "you do have a point but men and women are equally to blame for relationship problems and a lot of things actually. I am not trying to pick a fight but are blaming women are EVERYTHING in the world?"
A - Nonsense. Westernized - feminuts - nations are so far out of balance it isn't even funny. Feminism has destroyed the family, has waged a war on men and boys for 30 years now, and has resulted in the murder of about 1 BILLION unborn babies. There is so much anti-male hatred in westernized nations it's sick.
Regardless, it doesn't matter. The *POINT IS*, due to countless sexist laws passed over the past few decades it simply isn't safe for a man to marry any women in the "west", nor is it safe in many western nations to cohabitate with any women. A man has few if any rights and is always presumed to be guilty. A man has to also protect himself from all manor of false accusation in which he will be immediately judged guilty, such as child abuse and spousal abuse allegations.
By the way, in some cities 50%+ of abuse if violence AGAINST MEN - when was the last time you saw a men's shelter or any campain against violent and abusive women? Like, never? Point is, men are always found guilty in the west and always on their own (at best) and always responsible for everything and anything - even if they had nothing to do with it!
You may want to read, "The Garbage Generation" to see how wonderful a Matriarchal nation is and where westerized nations are heading. Femi-nutism kills any society it infects (why they need high immigration rates).
b. "Plus, don't deny that majoity of sex trafficking/modern slavery victims are women and children, that places like China, and India value their sons way more than their daughters as if the girls are less than human or something"
A - You're really grasping at straws. What the heck are you talking about? Ohh, why not bring in abuse of Dolphins? Talk about going off on a tangent!
Is this your pathetic attempt to respond at one of my points, which is for men to consider marrying and moving to a foreign nation? I gave an example of the Philippines as I live there part time, but guess what, there are many nations in the world which welcome good men.
Is that tired old feminist BS line - which doesn't even have anything to do with my original comment - the best you can do? Must be those FEELINGS.
c. "There's no point keeping up with this debate anyone anyway since both men and both on either side don't like to take ownership of their own gender's follies and sins but love to point each other's failures to make themselves look either like victims or like they are so perfect that they can't do anything wrong."
A- Nice try. I was talking to the men here when I posted, not debating women, which I often find a waste of my time. I was not here to mend bridges or discuss how things can be corrected as until the laws change there really is no point.
d. "No generation is more or less immoral than the future or previous ones."
That is pure bull. I believe that about 1 BILLION babies have been aborted thus far. Murder of 1 BILLION babies. I think that is a new record, don't you? DU dust which has a lifespan of 9 BILLION years is spreading around the world through trade winds causing horrible birth defects (during DS2, the DU set off radiation monitors in Australia and Britain for instance). The destruction of the family, the war of men and boys, and the crap we call "entertainment".
I can go on and on, but this generation, if far, far, FAR, *FAR* worse then any I have ever read about. Perhaps it is even more perveted and sick than that before the great flood. It's like so many people are utterly blind to what they are doing.
e. "We need to stop living like there is utopia in whatever era, nation, or culture when there is no such thing and there never will be"
Well I live in Asia part time, so I am well aware of what goes on there. I AM TALKING FROM EXPERIENCE. There is no comparison between a place like Canada or the US when it comes to family, the role of men and boys in society, the role of elders (no they don't stick them in a "old peoples' home to die"), education and so forth.
I know allot of men happy in places like Japan, Philippines (which is a CHRISTIAN NATION) and various South American nations. I think, you just do not want to face reality - THAT MEN DO HAVE A CHOICE which includes (but is not limited to) not getting married or moving to another nations. Tough, get used to it. Most westernized women simply do not deserve a man.
Why do you think nations like the US are literally dying? Have you no idea what is going on in finances and energy right now? You have about 24 months before you face times like you've never seen before.
I am constantly astonished how blind some women can be. Especially that crazy Maken cult. The women there still can't figure out why men are leaving and more hysterically, doing exactly what is required to push more out of the church! From what I saw on her cult blog, she wants men married off into slavery to serve women before they are old enough to even make an informed choice. What a con artist.
Most bachelors I know, are happy that way. Most have seen what divorce has done to those around them. Most people can hardly even name one happy married couple! It's always women pushing men to get married (when was the last time you saw a "GROOM" magazine in the store?). Furthermore, more times than not, the entire wedding revolves around *HER* and everything is done to HER demands. Her need, her wants, her feelings, her desires. The only thing most men get is the $20,000+ bill. The wedding is really a reflection of the marriage.
The truth is, most western women bring little or nothing to the table aside from bad mannerisms, hooks, accusations, nagging, and unending demands.
Marriage is dead in the west. IT IS NOT SAFFE FOR MEN TO MARRY IN WESTERIZED NATIONS - BUT - men can go overseas to other nations or look into other options.
Ew,
First off, I never read Maken's book and I don't really like her views very much anyway. I did visit her blog and put a couple of comments that address issues I have with her views. Out of the comments I made, only got through and another one waiting progress (which I doubt it will get through anyway). "On Marriage anf Family Life" by St. John Chrysostom (a monk from the 5th century) is one of the best books on marraige and family. Two, I'm not the kind of person who likes to makes guys to be interested in me anyway. I'm pro-life. Men in the Church are my siblings in Christ and they needed to treated with great regard. I believe that men and women are equal in personhood but they are different in function.
Sorry that you were so hurt and angered by my generation's sins and everything. I'm really am. Also, I should be careful with my willfulness and opinions. Like I said earlier, I'm no better than the next one at the dealing with relationships (in general not necessarily romantic ones). I committed offense and repent of them just like anyone else. It is true that women's attitude need to change. I know you are saying this out of concern for all men but I'm concerned that your unsolved anger towards women (though rightly) will somehow cripple you spiritually. But I can see that you have good intentions regarding of what's best for men and (hopefully) women. I guess we just have to disagree primarily on who are the transgressors on many of soceity's issues. I say both male and female are messed up in their own weird, whacked up way at different situations and at different times. However, God is hope-worthy and in control regarding of the culture wars so there is always genuine hope to reforming and turning back to God. I don't know when but it will
Well, it is intersting debate regarding of GoS v. Marriage Mandate. But God is in control, so keep up the good work even though it would have been better if it didn't drifted off from that. Oh well...
blessings on you, Songbird.
A few questions for you Songbird.
* What has China's population control/abortion situation got to do with the lack of single (wealthy?) men in Christian Churches as well as the decline in marriage in the west in general?
* If this situation of women and children being trafficked in their hundreds of thousands for decades now really exists (as feminist propaganda pushers assert), then where are all the arrests?
Articles like this one on trafficking of women do seem to make some rather dubious assertions.
"During the 1980s, there were three times more victims of trafficking for the purpose of prostitution in South-East Asia alone than in the entire history of the African slave trade. The African slave trade, which continued over a period of 400 years, claimed 11.5 million victims, whereas the trafficking for the purpose of prostitution in South-East Asia alone claimed 33 million victims in a decade.
The source for that assertion comes from this pdf "Trafficking Of Women For Sexual Exploitation" (right click save target as).
That document states that "Research for this paper was conducted through literature review and interviews." Most of this literature is nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion pieces from the likes of The Guardian (whacky UK left-wing newspaper famed for making mistakes). Alas, she cites no verifiable statistical data to back up her assertions that "Approximately 120,000 women and children are trafficked into the European Union every year." This seems to be the modus operandi for this type of propaganda. they just keep quoting factless sources which quote other factless sources and so on in circular fashion until there is so much of it that it's accepted as a "fact" that everyone knows. I'm not saying that there is no human trafficking at all, just that it has been exaggerated to the point of insanity in the name of demonizing men (yet again) and latching on to more public funding for something that the police forces and existing laws in the west can deal with adequately.
Here are some articles that cast serious doubt on the legitimacy of extent of the trafficking of women and children:
Traffic Noise
Half-Truths About Human Trafficking by Carey Roberts
Loose Women or Lost Women? The re-emergence of the myth of 'white slavery' in contemporary discourses of 'trafficking in women' by Jo Doezema
Amnesty Still Telling Lies
(sorry for the duplicate, I originally posted this response in the wrong thread)
Songbird:
Looks like we do have many things we agree with.
a. "I'm pro-life. Men in the Church are my siblings in Christ and they needed to treated with great regard. I believe that men and women are equal in personhood but they are different in function."
Absolutley. I believe to God, each life is equally important but that each has a unique role according to his/her own skills, talents, experinence, and make-up. God doesn't love anyone more or less in my beliefs.
Interestingly enough, in the Philippines there is no feminism in the rural parts and things work (as expected) much smoother between men and women. My wife is one of 12 children, they all have university degrees (some two) and women work until their are children involved (heck, the President is a women). *BUT* the husband and wife work as a *TEAM*, the man leads in many areas the women in others, they share their skills based on their particular talents for the common goal of making the best future for their children, and elders are cherished. It's not perfect but it works rather well (it's allot like the "Leave it to Beaver Days" there. Welfare there, old age retirement and health care is HAVING A STRONG FAMILY - now that is incentive. Notice how in the west, the government (corp-gov) has replaced these functions of the family.
When I toured schools I cannot begin to describe not only how dedicated, enthusiastic and motivated the children were but how respectful, polite and well mannered. This is from a solid upbringing with strict parental controls (FATHER and mother) and a Christian (usually R/C) background. Then I come back to Canada where the children are often undisciplined brats. That is one reason why 70% of Filipinos whom come to Canada to work do so in a professional capacity. Solid, traditional upbringings with the man and wife fulfilling their traditional God given roles.
b. "Sorry that you were so hurt and angered by my generation's sins and everything. I'm really am."
Thanks Songbird. I'm not hurt for myself as I am married and have been for 15 years now (I love'n it!) BUT I am hurt for this generation of men whom will never know the happiness of marriage and having a good TRADITIONAL (non-feminist) women, for women whom will never know what having a real and loving man is all about and for children whom will grow up in broken homes, single parent "families" and have more than one "father". The real father unless it is through adoption, will always be the BIOLOGICAL father not some boyfriend flavor of the day.
I believe that government should remain outside of the family, that children should be either home based OR brought up in private schools sans government interference, that the family (husband, wife, children) is *THE* building block of society, a Patriarch society is what God intends for their to be progress, and so forth. And, like you, I am 100% against abortion which I consider to be murder.
The government and the elite powers-that-be through the use of feminism and other "tools" is and has been purposely tearing apart the family for about 30 years now. In part to control the children, in part due to hidden Luciferian agendas (my belief), in part to weaken society for future conflict ("order through chaos"), to control women and especially to crush men/boys as they are the natural leaders of society and builders of civilization.
It really isn't safe for men to marry in a westernized nation as the axe of the government is always hovering over the necks of men.
c. "I know you are saying this out of concern for all men but I'm concerned that your unsolved anger towards women (though rightly) will somehow cripple you spiritually."
I come across that way, but I have no unresolved anger towards women. I do have anger towards *feminists* (a constructed tool of elite powers and governments and with a hidden Luciferian/lesbian agenda) and to towards governments whom have waged a war to destroy the family and to murder countless unborn children. I am also against the multi-cultural programs which floods western nations with religions not compatible with traditional western freedoms and values in great numbers thus setting the stage up for great future deaths.
The excuse given for massive amounts of (example) Islamic immigration is often that immigrants are needed as too many people are getting old. No kidding!, as a society and particularly through the poison of feminism the next generation has been killed off. It doesn't take a prophet to see massive future bloodshed - particularly with Christians - as Islam becomes a majority in westernized nations like the UK, EU, Australia, Canada and the US and sharia law is imposed. The 7,000 cars torched in France and the Islamic violence in many nations (Australia, parts of the EU, Thailand, Philippines...) last summer is but a taste of the future and IMO most western nations will see civil war in not to distant future. This I believe, is being constructed on purpose and one of the foundation to this evil plan is *feminism* which was responsible for the murder of the next generation (they had to convince women to kill the most precious thing to them!), destroy the family unit and most of all to destroy the leadership of real men. Thast is also why boys are targeted in school with drugs like Ritilan, they are destroying the future leaders which may pose a problem.
d. "I guess we just have to disagree primarily on who are the transgressors on many of soceity's issues. I say both male and female are messed up in their own weird, whacked up way at different situations and at different times."
Yes. *Feminism* as I mentioned above is a MAJOR building block of what one may term, the "new world order" or "NWO" for short. Too that extent, women have played (or been played depending upon how you look at it) a pivotal role. I do not believe there is hope in "the west" at this point, one must reap what they have sown (and feminism has sown the seeds for a bitter crop for over 30 years now).
One can only *PREPARE* for what is now to come. To that extent I would encourage men and women to make preparations. IMO you will see shortages (water, food, gasoline and energy in general..), high unemployment, financial instability and probable currency crises/crashes and civil wars (Islam vs. Christians and others) in the near future. For example, if the city water supply is contaminated or interrupted, what preparations do you have in place NOW to purify and collect your own water?
I may come across as harsh, but to me, protecting my wife and the entire (extended) family, providing true leadership to the entire family and community there is something I take very seriously.
Lastly, nice ID & thanks for the book recomendation.
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