Watch as Debbie Maken Shoots Herself in the Foot
1. First there is this decisively humiliating piece by Puritan Calvinist, wherein he exposes Debbie Maken's claim to the mantle of Reformed tradition as an ahistorical sham.
2. Now Debbie Maken says this:
In my best James Earl Jones voice: "Mrs. Maken's feelings have betrayed her. Now her failure is complete. If nothing else turns Christian men to the Bachelor Side, then perhaps she will."
2. Now Debbie Maken says this:
I have no sympathy for those pushing churches to cater to the unregenerate man as a way of drawing him in. The fact that a beer guzzling, Nascar watching, porn-viewing, minimum-wage earning loser thinks that church is not for him; well, he is right.I thank one of my posters for bringing this to my attention. Wonders never cease. Notice, dear readers, what Debbie Maken has done. She has mentioned earning a minimum-wage and watching NASCAR in the same breath as ... what? Yep, drinking alcohol and viewing pornography. I think Maken's remark reveals more about her social prejudices with regards to men than it does her standards of purity. How can one improve on this? We have been privy to a brief glimpse behind the mask of the Marriage Mandate Movement.
In my best James Earl Jones voice: "Mrs. Maken's feelings have betrayed her. Now her failure is complete. If nothing else turns Christian men to the Bachelor Side, then perhaps she will."
posted by Anakin Niceguy at 9:12 PM
35 Comments:
Anakin,
I expected the beer drinking, NASCAR watching comment from Maken as her beliefs are clearly in line with the idolatrous "prosperity ideology".
But let's get back to basics. Whether a woman marries a rich man or an ordinary man with an ordinary salary; it doesn't matter too much. Most of the marriage mandate crowd are desperate for marriage and family. These lonely women Debbie Maken seems to speak for are thirsting for male attention, sex, love and family.
Maken takes their pitiable situation and increases the odds they will never find a husband.
I know two of the most prominent Maken supporters and they have become very strident in their belief in Maken as an almost messianic figure in the arena of love and marriage. They will not listen to decent Christian men, Debbie has all the answers they need.
The damage done to these women is incalculable. Witness the ranting on the Captain Sensible blog. I wouldn't be surprised if she ended her nightly prayers with "...in the holy name of Debbie Maken, Amen."
Debbie is coming apart as she realizes she has lost key theological arguments and has lately been posting things in direct opposition to her fan's rantings.
Captain Sensible complains about overly feminine churches; then Debbie says the churches are overly masculine and geared to male preferences. Hmmm... maybe the solidarity between them is weakening.
Heaven forbid! Captain Sensible might actually come to her senses and realize marrying a man might be more satisfying than worshipping Debbie Maken as a false messiah.
It's my personal belief that love and romance are gifts from God to be enjoyed privately between two human beings of the opposite sex. Dating, love and marriage are things to be enjoyed as a private matter between two people who have been drawn together.
According to Debbie, it doesn't matter if people are drawn together simply by love or circumstance, it has to be a calculated matchmaking exercise done on a brief timeline according to strict procedural conditions. Sounds like Indian matchmaking to me.
Hopefully the most recent bizarre statements by Maken will wake up her followers and give them the opportunity to pursue love and marriage without so much bad advice getting in the way.
Debbie Maken's horrendous snobbery should cause 99% of Christian women to rethink their blind acceptance of her positions on love, dating, and marriage. Any "Christian" teaching which draws distinctions between classes of people is not Christian (neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, etc etc).
On this point I must agree: if what these women want and need is love, then this spirit of snobbery and dissatisfaction will not get them any closer to their goal of family life.
By the way, several of my PhD-holding friends watch NASCAR. As do many good, church-going, mature and upstanding men I have known through the years.
Also, if we women want to continue to watch our favorite mindless programming like A Wedding Story or The Bachelor, perhaps we shouldn't bash men's harmless entertainment (and NASCAR is much less poisonous than The Bachelor). I have never felt that my boyfriend (who also has a graduate degree) was any less intelligient, spiritual, or mature, because of his love for his favorite sports teams.
Well, you know, I've never, ever, ever, been to a NASCAR event, nor watched one on TV. But since I've learned the joy of listening to Petra blasting on the stereo while I also blast down some country road in my miata, I might just take NASCAR up. If they have a classification for Miatas.
I never drink. Before going on duty, that is.
I think we need to be extremely cautious in making changes to any churches in the UK or the USA.
Debbie Maken rightly illustrates how churches seem to be run by men and in the manner most appealing to men. Simply because a few more men than women are in regular attendance doesn't mean we need to roll back everything in churches that might appeal to women.
Debbie Maken says the churches are fine the way they are, but that men need to be educated on their proper roles. I agree with this, and I strongly disagree with Captain Sensible's opinion that the churches are too feminine and too geared toward female audiences.
If anything, we need to reach out to women so they do not feel neglected. I don't want women to feel unwelcome in the churches. Men do dominate the hierarchy of church leadership and they are responsible for whatever problems exist in the church. That may sound feminist, but women didn't mess up the churches or the social contract between men and women, men did.
Debbie Maken didn't shoot herself in the foot. Maybe it's just that she has all the answers. She knows how troubled most single Christian guys seem to be. Nobody has all the answers, but it seems Debbie Maken has most of them. She knows where the problems lie, with men who refuse to grow up; refuse to earn high salaries or work multiple jobs; who refuse to marry at their own level, even if it is a very low level of society.
I'm not a feminist and Debbie Maken most assuredly is not, but all of us probably can agree that the problems with Christianity were all created by men. If anything, women have been carrying the faith for centuries.
If men created the problems the church is now confronting, we need to rethink how we see the role of men in the church. Is is always bad for women to dominate or even to lead? Is God leading us to bring men back to the churches? Or are we making assumptions that may simply be a part of our physical and emotional drives?
For now, let's forget about doing men's outreach and focus on reaching out to women who may be feeling alienated or marginalized by all this talk from men about making the churches more friendly to men only.
We don't want to go back to an era when women had no voice. Simply because men are fleeing the churches doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the churches. As Debbie clearly shows us, it means there is a LOT wrong with men.
KellyAnn,
I agree. If churches are perfect for women, men should be comfortable too. After all, men are also part of the Bride of Christ.
I don't really know why the churches are repelling men so effectively. I do strongly agree that we MUST make churches much more friendly to women. A "backlash" against women would be a major setback for equality in worship and fellowship.
Debbie Maken recently discussed how churches are operated only in a male friendly manner. Women have little say or control in high-level decision making. Perhaps shared leadership of the churches between women and married couples might create an environment where women would always feel welcome and confident that they have a place.
I am absolutely sick of the silly men who think churches are feminine. If anything, women need more support and more fellowship groups to help them connect and stay focused. Let's be honest: men rule the churches. Why can't women have a place? Are Christian men so pathetic that they cannot accept equality in worship? Are they so misguided and infantile that they have to have absolute control of women?
I don't think so. The right kind of men and most women can join together to make our churches more dynamic and integrated while embracing more worshippers. It may mean excluding vast numbers of men who are spiritually perishing, but like Debbie Maken suggests: Jesus is only for the upper-middle class elite of both sexes. If you aren't the type of man acceptable to Debbie Maken and the Lord, you have no business attending church or reaching out to God. If you aren't successful and attractive, perfect according to Debbie's directives, you might as well convert to Islam.
We don't want you. If women cannot get their way, we'll bring Christianity down with prideful arrogance. We'll reject good men in favor of non-existent perfect men. We'll make Christianity so feminine and so intolerable to men that they will simply walk away. We'll show you who is in charge. If you can't handle it, you aren't even worth acknowledging as men.
**** Sarcasm? Of course. But how much of this seem like the true message of the Marriage Mandate crowd. Debbie Maken opened a can of worms with her book. Most Christian single women embrace her message and hold absolute contempt for men. Most single Christian men embrace Anakin's perspective. We know Debbie is wrong. Her mix of pop psychology, Sex & The City, and liberal Christianity is absolute poison for those seeking answers to very important questions.
I've posted on many blogs and battled the un-biblical ideas of the Makenites for a few months now. I've come to the conclusion that the damage is done. Many women will never accept that Debbie Maken is wrong; that her message will prevent men from marrying women who agree with her. I've dated two women who agree with Debbie and they seem incapable of simple honest interaction with a decent man who is interested in marriage.
I honestly feel deep sympathy for the women who feel Debbie Maken has all the answers. It saddens me that her intolerant message has turned available single women into judging, arrogant harpies. If you want to be single for life, ladies, read Debbie Maken's book and follow it's directions.
I'm not going to post anymore, but I'm really sad for the women who are never going to marry. There is another way, but too many women are too dedicated to Debbie Maken to see the light. I feel God will judge Maken very harshly.
It's a little sad that there aren't as many men wanting to marry.
Men and women are really "completed" by each other when they love each other and are mutually devoted.
Women were created to help men, but seem to often be competitors. Then Debbie Maken comes along and tells us that only her "ideal" of what a man should be can be acceptable to women.
What about all those imperfect people out there who nevertheless have really happy marriages?
Are they damned to hell, Debbie?
"First there is this decisively humiliating piece by Puritan Calvinist,"
What is truly humiliating is the bashing someone when you don't even have the balls to use your own name.
"What is truly humiliating is the bashing someone when you don't even have the balls to use your own name."
Said the anonymous poster.
He he.
The fact that a beer guzzling, Nascar watching, porn-viewing, minimum-wage earning loser thinks that church is not for him; well, he is right.
I would think that Joe Gibbs, a strong Christian who owns Joe Gibbs Racing, would have a few things to say about Debbie Maken's comment.
In addition, I'd like to know who appointed Debbie Maken, Alex Chediak, the blogger who styles herself "Captain Sensible" or anyone else to sit in judgment over single Christian men. I doubt Jesus or Paul did so.
You really have no fear of continually misrepresenting Debbie Maken, have you? You take one comment regarding how we do "church" and gleefully ignore the context and the point that she is making -- which, incidentally includes the line: "Christ is always right for anyone at any stage"
But that's not convenient for you, so you ignore it.
This would be shameful under any circumstances, but on a supposed Christian site, and written by supposed Christians?
You are continually bringing the name of the Lord into disrepute with this disgraceful blog.
"You are continually bringing the name of the Lord into disrepute with this disgraceful blog."
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
Nobody has attempted to bring the name of the Lord into this. The men and women who disagree with Maken's misrepresentations and obnoxious attitudes are speaking the truth about MAKEN only.
How could anyone have such an emotional investment in Debbie Maken that they cannot see where she has gone horribly wrong?
No human being is perfect. Some of you Maken fans seem to think everything Debbie Maken says is coming from the mouth of God. It isn't, it is just her very biased opinions.
Most of us love God and support marriage for those who want it. It doesn't mean there is a "mandate" for marriage; it doesn't mean shame or attacking men OR women is required.
Maken is wrong about a great many things and when she is wrong or revealing decidedly un-Christian biases, we will speak up about it.
Nobody should have a problem with that.
I agree with the solid points in Debbie's book, but her treatment of men is the book is downright shameful.
What do you call a woman who feels she knows what it is to be a man?
What do you call a woman who feels women have all the answers and are therefore immune to challenge?
What do you call a woman who feels women should lead men back to their "proper" role?
What do you call a woman who has few men in her life and seems to always show a fundamental disrespect for men?
Maken girls, think before you attack next time. Maken's message sounds right, but on many points, she is horribly wrong.
"At my church (a vineyard!) I have been told that they don't want men asking women out that they have met. Is there some point where the "kissing dating goodbye" folk have to bear some responsibility for treating christian men like predators?"
This comment appeared on the Captain Sensible blog. I'm surprised she published it.
Of course single Christian guys are suspected predators. If you have an organization based on women, love, flowers and singing; with children playing and bake sales, why do you want men around? Why are they needed?
Are they looking for sex? Are they looking to get at children?
This is the attitude in many churches. Especially in the UK where there is a panic over pedophilia these days. Every man is suspect, so men avoid women and children they don't know.
I don't understand these English women who have no men in their lives, yet they turn around and vote for Ken Livingston and the Labour party every time. They support all the politicians who create conditions where men cannot support a family on one income, where families break down and single motherhood is strongly encouraged.
Women side with government and effeminate churches, then wonder where all the men have gone.
It is truly astounding how confused and wrong these women are.
The fact that a beer guzzling, Nascar watching, porn-viewing, minimum-wage earning loser thinks that church is not for him; well, he is right.
I would think that Joe Gibbs, a strong Christian who owns Joe Gibbs Racing, would have a few things to say about Debbie Maken's comment.
WHAT AN IDIOT!
Does Joe Gibb watch porn, GUZZLE beer and make minimum wage???
What a stupid comparison!!
The Makenites are starting to look like one of those cults who start going hysterical when they realize they've been following a complete nutcase.
First they go into denial, then rage.
Pathetic.
The rage is coming from the idiots on this blog who can't seem to get their act together.
Tell us who can't get their act together. We'd really like to know.
Is it those of us who are happily married or very content bachelors?
Please, tell us.
I pray every day that God will strike down anyone who disagrees with Debbie Maken.
"How many women's and children's ministries did Jesus set up?" asks Captain Sensible.
Being a man as well as divine, Jesus simply forgot to spend all His time setting up women's ministries. But how could this be?
According to the Makenites, we need more women's outreach and more programs for women. I think it's time for us all to realize that the churches are run by men and for men. All this talk about churches being too feminine is just a lot of horsefeathers!
I am concerned that Jesus didn't set up even one women's ministry. Perhaps they just didn't include that part in the Gospels. I suspect Jesus probably did spend lots of time setting up day care centers for children and bringing women into the church.
Debbie Maken is always right, and the moon is made of green cheese, and monkeys might fly out of my butt, and... well, you get the picture.
"The fact that a beer guzzling, Nascar watching, porn-viewing, minimum-wage earning loser thinks that church is not for him; well, he is right."
I am astounded at this statement. The lost children of our greater human family aren't welcome in church? They aren't fit to be Christians or even hear the message of Christ?
Debbie Maken is no asset to Christianity and she has convinced a lot of men to avoid single Christian women. I'm going to encourage my sons not to date any woman who holds Debbie Maken's beliefs.
"Happily married" or "very content bachelors", eh?
Please, let's not forget the main source of the comments on this blog: One man (sometimes posing as a woman) who has not been able to get over being rejected by a woman who agrees with Debbie Maken.
In his impotent rage, he has decided to seek revenge by trying to discredit Maken, and he doesn't care how many lies and false testimonies he writes, or how many people he hurts in the process.
How wonderful that he has found a blog that allows him to do this, and a "Christian" blog at that!
And to think she rejected him because of his disturbing and erratic behaviour...
Anonymous 7/6/07 1:14 AM writes:
You really have no fear of continually misrepresenting Debbie Maken, have you? You take one comment regarding how we do "church" and gleefully ignore the context and the point that she is making -- which, incidentally includes the line: "Christ is always right for anyone at any stage"
LOL. What "context" can one provide to a statement that casually mentions low-wage earning guys and male NACSAR fans in the same breath as drinkers and porn-viewers? Unless, of course, Debbie were to say later in the piece cited ... "Just kidding, Guys!"
Anon 2:52 PM,
Please, let's not forget the main source of the comments on this blog: One man (sometimes posing as a woman) who has not been able to get over being rejected by a woman who agrees with Debbie Maken.
In his impotent rage, he has decided to seek revenge by trying to discredit Maken, and he doesn't care how many lies and false testimonies he writes, or how many people he hurts in the process.
How wonderful that he has found a blog that allows him to do this, and a "Christian" blog at that!
And to think she rejected him because of his disturbing and erratic behaviour...
Ummm, this is simply amazing. Do you know who you are quoting? Let me quote the same thing from a totally different place:
The former accusation can be easily dismissed: I suspect most of the prolific comments of this nature on certain blogs come primarily from one source: a vengeful, grudge-harbouring male that has been unable to get over a rejection from a Maken supporter, and hence allowed the enemy to get a foothold. The irresponsibility of the blog owner concerned to allow this commentator to comment so prolifically and so offensively -- unchecked -- is really quite breathtaking. (You'd have thought there was a clue in the fact that the commentator posted once under the name of Legion!) I can only assume that pride over the number of comments the blog appears to attract, has blinded him to the fact that it is primarily one person posting under the cloak of anonymity or various male and female pseudonyms. These offer a range of views designed to discredit Maken, including "female" supporters with anti-male rants, to attacks of an extremely personal nature. The foolishness of the blog owner in allowing all of this to take place on what is viewed as a Christian site, thereby discrediting the name of Jesus, reveals a deeply troubled spirit that has provided an unpleasant home for all manner of hatred. Meanwhile, not content with that outlet, said hate-filled commentator continues to daily inundate this blog with comments designed to cause varying degrees of intimidation and offence, including one apparently from Beelzebub himself!
It will be interesting to see what comment(s) he chooses to send in response to this post. I have news for you Legion, Beelzebub, or whatever male/female/anonymous name you choose to call yourself at the moment: Jesus Christ is Lord and I stand firm under His Lordship and authority. Now SCRAM!
There -- just thought I would get that out into the light! Some things have been hidden in the dark for too long now.
That comes from here:
http://thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com/2007/06/debbie-maken-speaking-truth-in-love.html
You have quoted Captain Sensible...Captain Sensible!!!!!?????? The head of the cultic version of this movement????? Realize that this would be kind of like us quoting feminists to support our position.
I read this, and at this point, I must say that Captain Sensible has gone off the deep end. I now, officially, consider her version of this movement cultic. When you start trying to get people to believe some outlandish claim to explain away all criticism of your position, you have officially shown you cannot handle intellectual dialogue, and must resort to this kind of absurd statement.
I also don't know how she has the time to keep posting at the speed that she does on her blog. I go back to her blog two or three days later, and I feel like I missed something. Apparently, she has been so preoccupied with promoting the mandatory marriage movement that she hasn't had time to announce her engagement. Either way, she is not a good source.
However, you have not proven your point. Just saying it doesn't make it so. So, prove it. Go back to all of the posts on this blog and prove that there is only one person who is writing. I hope this will discourage using Captain Sensible as a source. She is by far the most radical of the marriage mandators, and she is starting to go off the deep end.
God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist
"One man (sometimes posing as a woman) who has not been able to get over being rejected by a woman who agrees with Debbie Maken."
You're right, you're right! (tears falling from his eyes) I am every single commenter on this blog, on the Captain Sensible blog and on Debbie Makens' blog. I'm working with Satan to discredit the holy work of Debbie Maken.
In the interests of full disclosure, Satan and I are also selling vacuum cleaners door to door so we have money to buy marajuana. :)
By the way, being rejected by a Makenite doesn't create "rage" in any man, simply relief.
P.S. If there is only one person standing up to Debbie Maken, he is one brave soul; and a very fast typist!
How can Christian men step up to the plate and assume leadership roles when Christian women steadfastly refuse to listen to them?
Doesn't make any sense to me.
As for Maken's supporters who do daily rants against men while promoting Maken's book, they might want to stop complaining and start dating.
You might have heard about dating. It's where you take positive action to meet members of the opposite sex. You meet, get to know each other, and possibly find someone you may want to be with.
It really works. It's so much better than spending thousands of hours promoting a book that seems to be turning off even more men to Christianity.
I know many of you adore Debbie Maken and feel she has all the answers, but you are still single and still complaining. Perhaps Maken's advice works for you, but not for the men who might have married you.
There are plenty of men who would really love to marry a good Christian girl - even one over 40. But men need to be allowed to be men. They will not attend girly churches and will not worship Debbie Maken. The sooner you ladies accept this reality, the sooner you'll find a man who will want you.
"How can Christian men step up to the plate and assume leadership roles when Christian women steadfastly refuse to listen to them?
Doesn't make any sense to me."
I agree completely!!!!!
I think we need to look at the motives of those who attack Debbie Maken.
These men are:
1)Unwanted, impotent losers who have never held a decent job.
2)Not Christian men, but bad men who just want to stir up trouble.
3)Longtime bachelors who have never had a relationship and probably think porn is an acceptable alternative.
It is depressing how pathetic single Christian men are. We have nobody to choose from. How come there were lots of real men a few decades ago, now there are only a few and they are all married!
If the men who post here are representative of Christian men, you can forget about speaking to me at church!
***Buy Debbie Makens' book now at www.amazon.com, or www.amazon.co.uk
I think we need to look at the motives of those who attack this blog.
These women are:
1)Unwanted, infertile losers who have unkept personal hygiene.
2)Not Christian women, but bad women who just want to stir up trouble.
3)Longtime bachelorettes who have never had a relationship and probably think cats and romance novels are an acceptable alternative.
It is depressing how pathetic single Christian women are. The men have nobody to choose from. How come there were lots of real women a few decades ago, now there are only a few and they are all married!
If the women who post here are representative of Christian women, you can forget about speaking to me at church!
***Burn Debbie Makens' book now at www.amazon.com, or www.amazon.co.uk
Debbie Maken seems to be putting social class (and dating) ahead of evangelism (reaching the lost).
Martin.
You guys are such a bunch of idiots.
Comments like "Unwanted, infertile losers who have unkept personal hygiene."
and book burning DON'T bother anyone on this site.
Hey PC why aren't you whining about tone now!!
Double-standard hypocrites
GH
GH,
That person was constructing a parody. He was showing that you can assult anyone's character using the arguments that Debbie Maken uses. All you need to do is set up a standard, and then just shame anyone who doesn't happen to meet that standard.
Did you also notice that it came on the heels of someone else's post that looked exactly the same?
Of course, GH, you cannot even have intellectual discourse. Again, I point out that your tone keeps on illustrating that you can use a whole lot of nasty language to say something, but it doesn't mean that what you have to say is coherent. In fact, many times it just simply means that your arguments are so bad that you have to intimidate people into believing what you do. I am so glad I do not have your problem, and can engage in an honest examination of the issues.
I honestly pray for folks like you and Captian Sensible that God will turn your heart from believing falsehood to loving his truth.
God Bless,
PuritanCalvinist
GH,
"Unwanted, infertile losers who have unkept personal hygiene."
and book burning DON'T bother anyone on this site.
Oh, good grief. "There's book burning going on. Oh, Oh, Oh, my go-O-odness. What will we do?"
Get a life, for cryin' out loud. Can't you see the sarcasm in reply to the other comparative post above it ... or are you that dense?!? Double standards, you say? I can see the first post above the one you found offensive didn't bother you at all.
LOL - A book burning boogeyman. Sheeesh. Puh-leeeeze, find yourself another hobby, woman.
The Bible I read says that God wills all men to be saved. Not just the ones that Makin approves of. I've tested the spirits, and Makins are not "of God."
Debbie Maken would NEVER say that about "loser women". In her eyes only men can be losers not women.
Also Jesus said:
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."" (Mark 2:17)
She says that church aren't for these "losers". That's not what Jesus says.
Ahh but Debbie Maken thinks she knows more than Christ you see. And all without a degree or background in exegesis or biblical studies.
Arrogance and small mindedness define what Maken is all about.
Post a Comment
<< Home