Response ... or Repetition?
Well, Debbie Maken finally gave her long-awaited response to Farmer Tom. The catch is that she covers no new ground in argumentation, but simply rehashes some talking points from her book and/or points I have already addressed in my review of her. To wit, she alleges:
1. Sexually irresponsible men is one of the main problems--if not the problem.
2. Women have no choice but to work because of men, and besides, men prefer it that way.
3. We should praise women for their accomplishments in traditionally male fields of endeavor, and such shouldn't intimidate men from pursuing women.
4. Divorce and feminism is not a problem that should keep men from pursuing marriage.
5. If women divorce men, there is usually an understandable reason for it.
6. When women go astray, we must hold men accountable for failing to provide leadership.
For the newer readers of my blog, I suggest that you read part 5 of my critique of Debbie Maken's book (if you have not already done so). It addresses the above assertions made by Mrs. Maken.
EDIT: Triton has fisked Maken's reply. Check it out.
1. Sexually irresponsible men is one of the main problems--if not the problem.
2. Women have no choice but to work because of men, and besides, men prefer it that way.
3. We should praise women for their accomplishments in traditionally male fields of endeavor, and such shouldn't intimidate men from pursuing women.
4. Divorce and feminism is not a problem that should keep men from pursuing marriage.
5. If women divorce men, there is usually an understandable reason for it.
6. When women go astray, we must hold men accountable for failing to provide leadership.
For the newer readers of my blog, I suggest that you read part 5 of my critique of Debbie Maken's book (if you have not already done so). It addresses the above assertions made by Mrs. Maken.
EDIT: Triton has fisked Maken's reply. Check it out.
posted by Anakin Niceguy at 10:22 PM
37 Comments:
At least an effort was made to lead Debbie back to some sort of balance.
Her response to Farmer Tom reveals that she really doesn't care what men think or feel. The men who bother to engage in the Marriage Mandate discussion are usually dedicated Christians, not cads who leave women pregnant while leading a life of crime and mayhem.
The men have been thoughtful and reasonable, but Maken and her crowd cannot be bothered to see that there is another part of the debate, the honest part.
Sexual liberation may be keeping men and women from marriage, but almost 90% of divorces are initiated by women. Claiming that women "had a good reason" is simply dishonest. Divorce has been incentivized by lawyers and courts. Many women intentionally alienate children from divorced fathers. Many women are so promiscuous, they will never make good intimate partners for one man.
All of these concerns are legitimate. Men don't hate women because they have degrees, hold jobs and own their own homes. Far from it! We congratulate women for their accomplishments, sexual independence and freedom. The problem is that women now see men as disposable and men are reacting with caution to this new reality. If that means delaying or avoiding marriage, women must accept the larger share of responsibility.
It makes no sense to chastise men for avoiding marriage if it is now financially and legally risky.
Debbie Maken's response wasn't simply repetition, it was deeply dishonest. She knows what feminism and her legal profession have done to marriage. Yet it is so much easier to heap more scorn on the few decent guys left in Christianity.
At least the debate is now settled. Debbie and Captain Sensible and the rest of the spinster crowd are hopelessly wrong, but they seem to enjoy the endless complaining.
Men, go your own way and live your own life as you please. You owe nothing to these women.
Concerning Point #1:
It's become pretty obvious that to the Maken crowd, marriage should be a simple proposition if a guy is really pursuing it as a goal. That is to say, if a guy really wants to get married, all he has to do is ask out one of these attractive, available, and all-around awesome single girls that the churches are just filled with (any of them; it doesn't really matter which, because she's bound to say yes if you're as mature as you should be), date her for a few months, get engaged, and then get married a couple months later, and it really should be as simple as that. And if it's not that simple for you, then that's just a sign that you're not as serious about marriage as you claim to be.
Of course, the real world isn't that simple. I would like to get married some day (because I want to get married, and not because of some mythical marriage mandate, referencing Anakin's earlier post about positions on marriage vs. singleness). I'm active in my church; have a stable, well-paying, white collar job; and would like to think I'm of at least average attractiveness with average social skills. I've been told by several married girls in our young adult group at church that I would make a great catch, yet as of late (as in the past year and a half or so), I've had no success wooing any of the young ladies in my social circles. Of course, this just means that I've had bad luck, and that my lack of success in romantic pursuits is not a judgment on me, as there is no verse in scripture that promises us timely marriage if we are faithful. Yet according to the Maken crowd, I must be doing something wrong, as there is no way that an "eligible" Christian guy who is truly being "mature" about marriage should have not found a mate by now.
I think the biggest problem is that the Maken crowd is assuming that their own circumstances mirror reality. They look around their churches and see something like four girls for every guy (at least that's what they claim), and few guys seriously wanting marriage, and conclude that it must the same everywhere else in the world. Of course, this is way to small of a sample size to conclude anything worthwhile, but that doesn't stop them from drawing conclusions about the universal church based on their own local situations. You can even see that in her recent blog post, where she cites "five divorces I can personally think of" and then concludes that small number of cases is representative of everyone as a whole.
Hey Anakin,
I have finally fixed my article on Debbie Maken's misuse of the book of Hosea on my blog. I figured you might be interested in reading it now that the size of the fonts are not one third the size of your screen!
PuritanCalvinist
I thnk it worth noting that we must walk in forgiveness to those who wrong us verbally, either by (specifically) misquoting us or (generally) heaping scorn upon us. That kind of fruit is evidence of stability and will keep a root of biterness out of our own hearts while we talk with our sisters (and with some of those in positions of leadership) about these ideas we find so bad.
I just can't help myself, man. She already presents such a big, easy target, as your blog so thoroughly demonstrates. But for her to start her post talking about health care and espousing some thinly-veiled Marxist economics...? Talk about a target-rich environment.
If I didn't know better, I'd say Debbie is just a foil created by guys like us.
Oh, I'm down with talking about her ideas and associating her name with them -- there is ample NT precedence for this - just saying we shouldn't be bitter about it and get screwed up ourselves.
I wonder what Ms Maken and Captain Sensible would make of this blog article?
It's probably all the man's fault because he wasn't earning enough and meeting his ex-wifes "emotional needs".
"Yet according to the Maken crowd, I must be doing something wrong, as there is no way that an "eligible" Christian guy who is truly being "mature" about marriage should have not found a mate by now."
Yes, they simply assume that life is as simple as getting what you want if you just try hard enough. When this is combined with the elevation of marriage to a moral and spiritual necessity, we then have all the elements of a works based religion in which everyone must scrabble to find a mate for fear that they be found wanting in the site of God. Failure to succeed in getting married in a timely manner becomes a clear sign that one is an immoral person and is under God's disapproval. It's pretty much the same mindset displayed by Job's comforters. This stuff is so profoundly anti-gospel that it just blows my mind.
An important article by Stephen Baskerville:
Welfare and the “Road to Serfdom”
Moreover, it is not called the welfare “state” for nothing. For unnoticed by reformers has been a startling development that is far more serious than even the devastating economic effects. This is the quiet metamorphosis of welfare from a simple system of public assistance into nothing less than a miniature penal apparatus, replete with its own system of courts, prosecutors, police, and jails: juvenile and “family” courts, “matrimonial” lawyers, child protective services, domestic violence units, child support enforcement agents, and more. This kafkaesque machinery operates by its own rules, largely outside the constitutional order, and represents the fulfillment of Friedrich von Hayek’s prophecy that socialism would eventually take us down a “road to serfdom.”
Part of a recent behind-the-scenes exchange with Debbie Maken:
"Casually ignoring thoughtful men and cheering the social reality that keeps many women single is probably a bad strategy if you are seriously trying to win people to your perspective.
Despite your book, men are still leaving Christianity. Men are still avoiding Church, marriage and tradition. Seriously Debbie, your own marriage isn't some fairy-tale success story. You had to use traditional Indian matchmaking and do a makeover on an awkward, socially inept Indian guy. That isn't appealing to most women out there.
If you can attack decent men and mock them when they share their feelings, I know you aren't coming from a Christian perspective. The really sad thing is that you have poisoned quite a few minds (Captain Sensible, etc.) with your book.
Men didn't change over the last 40 years, but women did. Social leftism and feminism are now concretised as pillars of Western Christianity. This is why many denominations are dying out.
By the way, the term feminist is not offensive. It merely represents a woman who believes her feelings are more important than facts; a woman who uses scripture or law to serve her feelings, not reality. That is what you are; a woman who approaches the debate with a fundamental disrespect for men who do not meet your standards of what a Christian should be.
Shame on you, Debbie."
So much for you people not engaging in "personal, ad hominem" attacks.
Hypocrites!
"Yes, they simply assume that life is as simple as getting what you want if you just try hard enough. When this is combined with the elevation of marriage to a moral and spiritual necessity, we then have all the elements of a works based religion in which everyone must scrabble to find a mate for fear that they be found wanting in the site of God. Failure to succeed in getting married in a timely manner becomes a clear sign that one is an immoral person and is under God's disapproval. It's pretty much the same mindset displayed by Job's comforters. This stuff is so profoundly anti-gospel that it just blows my mind."
Very well said. The Marriage Mandate crowd is like the prosperity televangelists of the 1980s and 1990s.
If you only "step up" and marry, you can be saved!!!
I cannot believe the evil in "Christian" men these days. Debbie Maken is truly a messenger of God, let us prostrate ourselves before her and worship.
It is the only way to save ourselves. We must pray to the Father, Debbie Maken, the Son and the Holy Spirit...in that order or be damned.
i still can't believe how much drama surrounds this! wow. but what i really want to say, which i think several people may have touched on; there is some truth to both sides. i personally have a love/hate relationship with debbie's book.
i have to admit that reading it made me cry and say 'yes! yes!' as i read through parts that talked about how prolonged singleness is not good. my heart seems to ache more and more the older i get to share my life with someone. i'm sad that whoever i end up with will have missed out on certain aspects of me.
but i agree with many people that her theology doesn't seem totally sound, and that there was a lot of blame being tossed about in that book and not a lot of help or encouragement.
and perhaps most importantly, there seemed to be little talk about people's individual circumstances, or concern for friends/brothers/sisters.
there are such broad generalizations made, and i think that's where christians get into trouble. do we care more about proving debbie maken wrong and ourselves right, or about encouraging people, no matter where they are in this debate?
ok. i'm rambling. sorry. keep debating
So much for you people not engaging in "personal, ad hominem" attacks.
Hypocrites!
Care to add some substance to the debate, or must you continue whining on-and-on with your pathetic one-liners. Step up to the plate, GH, GB, or whoever you are now. What are you afraid of that you keep coming to this blog (because it's a waste of your time, right) with your little pithy, half-baked remarks?
What substance are you adding?
Besides letting the world know what an idiot you are!
What a bunch of awkward, socially inept White people.
Shame on you!
(Anon. 8/28/07 6:31 AM)
I disagree with the notion of men remaining unchanged for the last forty years. The influence of feminism or equality or whatever moniker one wishes to apply, forced men to either change with the times, or be left behind.
We were the ones who learned how to deal with women in the workforce in unprecedented numbers.
We learned to deal with being held suspect in our motives and conduct anytime a woman complained.
We were compelled into moving along with the feminist agenda to the point of passing huge numbers of laws favoring women and deliberately disadvantaging men.
We did this precisely because we were men, and could handle the additional challenges. We got used to it.
The problem now is that most people who petitioned for that change to occur are now whinging on and on about how they really don't want it anymore and want men to ascribe to some other notion of masculinity....masculinity as defined by women, of course. If anyone is the least bit qualified to define masculinity it's women. Men attempting to define femininity would be castigated for it.
Don't waste your time expecting substantive arguements from our hyper-emotional and logically challenged opponents, guys. Those that hurl invective and pretend to be spokes-people for the rest of the world only show the weakness of their positions. It's shouting down the wind when the wind doesn't even care.
What a bunch of awkward, socially inept White people.
Shame on you!
Hey, I love you, too, sweetheart. Say, once you get over your fetish with this blog, my mentally challenged superstar, can we get out? I loOove frumpy bags with their hair cut above the ears ...
Have y'all seen Debbie's comment at her latest post? She's letting her effete elitism show a bit:
Just an FYI, my husband and I both changed each other for the better. He was quite the metrosexual, well read, well schooled, geo-politically inclined businessman when I met him, and some of his bourgeois tendencies rubbed off on me. It was I who changed on the social adeptness front, and I am so glad everytime we go to the Naples Ritz Carlton for weekend trips and take all of our many luxury vacations. And yes, if I could recommend to women elsewhere to follow my path and land a wonderful Indian Christian like my husband, I would gladly do it. Because guess what, my husband because of Indianness (which you think is synonymous with socially awkward behaviour), is actually brilliant enough to make money in very creative ways, so that I can be a stay at home mom in one of the most expensive zip codes in the country. (Figured out yet why jobs are floating away to India???; there are some major clues in here for you-- grow up, quit blaming others, get a real education with real earning potential, have a vision for success that is outside of the box of what either the church sells you (in its excuse of mediocrity for false piety) or what Wall Street/government sells you, get married and have children, so that the population increases and so does trade). Just remember, there is going to be another name for the socially awkward boy-- "boss."
Marriage and achieving it isn't supposed to be a fairy tale. (Yet another faulty assumption, you intellectual buffoon). It is a serious venture for those who have the maturity and internal fortitude to weather its storm and labor to make the "sweet honey of life." My road may not be the one traveled by many in the West, but it is one that actually achieves marriage to an "equally yoked" partner. I tried your serendipitous fairy tale route, and it got me redneck wannabes, poor men justifying their professions with spirituality, men with legitimate degress that didn't want to succeed in real careers but flirt with serial temporary employment, men with serious debt and money mismangement issues, men who were well below the par. So, anon, men have changed greatly in the last forty years. But I am sure that the Feminists and their inroads into churches made them all such unaccountable, unanchored, socially boring, late blooming bachelors.
It's all about the filthy lucre, I guess.
I swear, I haven't seen snobbery like this since...well, I can't remember. Perhaps I've never seen snobbery to this degree.
And she's wrong, of course, about why jobs are leaving the West and heading to places like India. It has to do with government intervention in the market, not marriage rates or cultural attitudes or any other reason Debbie might conjure from thin air.
I think it would behoove Debbie to ponder the following verses, even though they clash with her apparent worldview:
Le:19:15: Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
Job:34:19: How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.
Proverb:13:7: There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.
Proverb:22:2: The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all.
Proverb:28:6: Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich.
I'm still laughing. Thanks, Triton, for the heads up. Debbie's comments are starting to appear like something a troll would post as parody. I would expect this material to be at The Onion.
I wonder now if Dobson and Mohler, having gave Debbie their endorsement, are happy with the monster they helped create? They should have defused her when they had the chance.
I said it once at your blog, Triton, and I'll say it here, every time Debbie speaks, she discredits herself more and more. I believe it's only a matter of time before she reaps what she has sown. She's her own worst nightmare. She's really snapped.
Alas, if only the latest stuff she's writing at her blog had been added to her book ...
My husband is greater than Jesus! There, I said it! He was the greatest Indian to have ever lived and I won him over despite millions of young attractive women literally throwing themselves at him. We are both very wealthy and often stay at the Ritz Carlton and Four Seasons hotels.
You men are idiots. My husband is the only acceptable man left on this planet. Jesus isn't for you, not for men who do nothing but complain and cry because they are complete losers with WalMart jobs.
I pray that God will strike you down and make my book #1 on the bestseller lists. Perhaps you can help with the Lord's work by committing suicide. That would clear away a lot of you pesky "pretend" Christians.
Long live Indian traditionalism and wonderful Indian men who earn billions every year despite never bathing!
And never forget - Christianity is only for obnoxiously self-righteous Indians. The rest of you should convert to Islam and earn your way into Hell.
The only way your book is going to be number 1 on the best seller's list is if WalMart carries it; not sold as literature, mind you, but as fuel for the fireplace or barbecue pit. Shredded up, I'll bet it would make a fine garden fertilizer, crammed as it is with pure bullsh*t.
You shouldn't make such negative distinctions about WalMart. As to the rest of them...who gives a damn what you think?
You are a laughingstock, Debbie...you provide hours of entertainment.
If I am going to Hell, I look forward to seeing you there.
wow...what a bunch of racist jerks!!!
This whole discussion has gotten really sad. What does it say about us when we Christians can talk to each other the way we do on this blog. Francis Schaeffer once observed that if we Christians fail to love each other, then the world can legitimately conclude that what we believe is false. What conclusion do we think the world would draw from reading the recent discussion on this thread?
More Debbie Maken discussion behind the scenes:
"Because guess what, my husband because of Indianness (which you think is synonymous with socially awkward behaviour)" -Debbie Maken
Never said it, never implied it.
You yourself have told your audience that your husband was very awkward and in need of social skills training. Don't you remember describing how you and Mrs. Maken Senior had to work on him until he was "acceptable" to you?
Your critics don't take you seriously because you aren't honest. You never seem to answer any critic directly. You question their motives or beliefs, then simply repeat your message. I disagree with most of what you say; will you now attack my motives or social standing? I've been married for 18 years with two children and I earn over $120,000 per year. So, you cannot attack me as a loser pizza delivery boy with no success with women. Am I possessed by Satan because I disagree with you?
There could be a very important and very constructive discussion going on about the very real family-breakdown issues in the Church. You could have been an important figure in the discussion which could have brought real changes to the Church. Instead, you seem to be on the vanguard of the New Christian Feminist movement with its profound contempt for ordinary men. I know plenty of guys who are turned off to Christianity because it is largely dominated by self-righteous and intolerant women. If you need an example of one of these women, look into a mirror.
Your critics are right and you are sadly mistaken on your conclusions about Christian men. What you have done to the minds of women such as "Captain Sensible" is downright evil. If you truly are "giving birth to a new movement", it will surely cause many more men to avoid marriage and the Church.
Let's see, I was brought up Christian, but tuned it out during my college years. I had random sex with a few guys but no real relationships with any future. I started working, became a dedicated leftist and enjoyed travel, homeownership and lots of women friends.
Then I hit age 40 with no husband or children. I know it is my own fault for not prioritising marriage, but the rage I feel I have to direct somewhere!
Debbie Maken showed me that I can blame men for my choices. My politics are unChristian and my life choices have been immoral or even feminist, but I can blame men for not wanting me. I can blame men for not wanting to marry an old woman who probably cannot birth healthy children.
So I sit here; bitter, complaining and angry. I'll never marry and my eggs are drying up. All of this is my fault, but I hate men for it. I hate them all.
Debbie's latest post which Triton referenced, in her commnents section, is absolutely horrendous. I'm actually surprised those who have referenced it here have not had a more strongly negative reaction to it. It really goes far beyond anything she's ever written before (at least I think; I haven't read her book.) Boasting about staying at the Ritz Carlton, taking luxury vacations, and living in an expensive area? Implying that upper-middle-class white-collar work is morally superior to the alternative, a duty for every Christian man in order to be a "real man," and that it is attainable for everyone (belying a very poor understanding of economics--if every man became a "real man," who's going to collect the garbage from your luxury McMansion subdivision?)
Debbie Maken has been endorsed by mainstream evangelicals, but now I wonder if she is even really a true Christian. I understand she quotes the Reformers in her book, but does anyone know if she attends an actual Bible-believing, Gospel-preaching church? This sounds more like what I'd expect from the health-and-wealth, prosperity Gospel, Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes types. Like knightwatch, I would really like to know if this latest information about her views would cause Al Mohler, the Boundless editors, and other mainstream evangelicals who endorsed her to regret having done so.
The racism in some of the comments is stunning. What is also sad that is most people aren't bothered by it (or give a damn).
It is easy to mock the rich when you yourself have not accomplished anything in life. Poverty is NO sign of spirituality. In fact, I can think of some proverbs that link poverty with laziness.
It is very sad to see the anger and hatred in the comment section and perhaps a better indicator of your faith than being rich or poor.
Darren
D. Allen wrote...
"The racism in some of the comments is stunning."
Working on the premise that you are not a troll, I ask this question:
Can you be a bit more specific and quote what you see as "racism" anywhere in this thread please?
If Debbie Maken reads this site, I hope she will be encouraged!
:-D
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5: 11-12)
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5: 11-12)
This is directly from "Captain Sensible". She is Maken's one-woman cheerleading squad.
Debbie Maken is making her point clearly: A Christian spinster deserves a very attractive, very wealthy, very controllable man. If the single Christian men available aren't rich or almost-rich, it is better for single Christian women not to marry.
If you know there aren't any rich single men around, you might as well give up the search for a husband. Because unless the guy is rich and attractive, he doesn't even deserve a moment of your time.
To see an example of the ravings of someone pushed into near-insanity by Maken, visit thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com.
Just as Maken selectively uses scripture to advance her elitist and snobby views, Captain Sensible selectively uses scripture to defend Maken.
It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic and so absurd.
""The racism in some of the comments is stunning. What is also sad that is most people aren't bothered by it (or give a damn).""
Are you kidding? Maken tries to play the race card, but it doesn't fly in a discussion of what is Biblical and what isn't. Maken says she offers advice for all single Christian women when really everything she says is straight out of Hindu culture.
Believe me, I know.
The drama of an Indian woman and her future mother-in-law nagging a disinterested young man into marriage is very common in our culture. The highest goal to these people has nothing to do with God, it all has to do with being a rich power-couple doing well in America; and then of course, showing off to the relatives back home in Mumbai or Goa.
I'm sorry some of you don't get Debbie Maken, but she is very much a snobby Indian elitist who has no Christian love for ordinary schmucks like us. That includes other Indians such as me who barely earn 60K per year. In Debbie's view, we aren't "real" men and not worthy of women or God's love.
Keep up the debate with Debbie. She continues to reveal the kind of person she truly is.
Economic elitism, cultural elitism and making idols out of marriage, career and luxuries? These are not Christian values, but rather Brahmin secular values.
It isn't racism to notice when certain people replace true Christian teachings with Indian cultural traditions then attempt to sell the package wrapped in carefully selected Gospel verses.
Don't be fooled by Debbie Maken. Just understand who and what she is; a snobby attorney who is long on opinions and very short on truth.
"I'm an idiot sometimes."
Debbie Maken, August 2007
Finally, even Debbie gets it.
Jason, are you stupid???
Incapable of reading comments like this
"Indian men who earn billions every year despite never bathing!"
"Indian men who earn billions every year despite never bathing!"
Hey dude, your mom called. The KKK party is at 8 and don't forget the sheets.
Again, I feel the need to point out how extremely sad it is to see Christians making such ugly and demeaning remarks to each other from both sides of this debate. Scripture is far clearer on the matter of how we should treat each other, than it is on the issue of marriage versus singleness, yet one constantly witnesses people in this debate confidently asserting their own rightness and everyone else's wrongness while treating those they disagree with in the rudest manner possible. Are we more interested in submission to scripture or in being right? It sure looks like it's the second a lot of the time.
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